Starfleet Commander Forum

Starfleet Commander => Strategy => Topic started by: bricks on January 19, 2010, 08:04:46 PM

Title: Defense Ratio
Post by: bricks on January 19, 2010, 08:04:46 PM
For those who decide to turtle or just want to up their defenses, what is a good ratio to pursue?  I'm sure there should be a balance between fodder and hammers.

i.e. # missles : # lasers : # pulse : etc.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on January 19, 2010, 08:06:54 PM
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: jrdhpr on January 19, 2010, 10:38:54 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
Did you just pull that out of.......well you know, or do you really think that?

My personal defense was to fleetsave what I can each night and use the rest to up defenses. I did this and now have:
Missile: x759
Laser: x238
Pulse: x147
Particle: x150
Anti-Ballistic: x30
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x50
Gauss: x69
Large: x1
Plasma: x10

And still growing.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Nero on January 19, 2010, 11:10:04 PM
Quote from: "jrdhpr"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
Did you just pull that out of.......well you know, or do you really think that?

My personal defense was to fleetsave what I can each night and use the rest to up defenses. I did this and now have:
Missile: x759
Laser: x238
Pulse: x147
Particle: x150
Anti-Ballistic: x30
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x50
Gauss: x69
Large: x1
Plasma: x10

And still growing.


I wanna be like you when i grow up...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: bricks on January 19, 2010, 11:34:22 PM
I see, so you would say:

75 missiles : 25 lasers : 15 pulse : 15 particle : 7.5 gauss : 3 AIBM : 1 plasma?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on January 19, 2010, 11:46:11 PM
Quote from: "jrdhpr"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
Did you just pull that out of.......well you know, or do you really think that?

I don't think it, I know it.

It was derived from absolute value(using 3:2:1 ratio for production) and then simulated versus other configurations of equal absolute value. It was the most effective ratio for preventing a wide range of fleet compositions.

Your defense isn't even that intimidating. It's only worth 4,997,000 Ore, 2,908,000 Crystal and 438,000 Hydrogen. I've got ~2x that res sitting on my mobile colony right now + 3m hydrogen.

:Edit: Having 30 Anti and 50 Interplanetary on the same planet? That's bogus. You'd need a level 13 Missile silo to store that.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Xight on January 20, 2010, 02:28:08 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "jrdhpr"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
Did you just pull that out of.......well you know, or do you really think that?

I don't think it, I know it.

It was derived from absolute value(using 3:2:1 ratio for production) and then simulated versus other configurations of equal absolute value. It was the most effective ratio for preventing a wide range of fleet compositions.

Your defense isn't even that intimidating. It's only worth 4,997,000 Ore, 2,908,000 Crystal and 438,000 Hydrogen. I've got ~2x that res sitting on my mobile colony right now + 3m hydrogen.

:Edit: Having 30 Anti and 50 Interplanetary on the same planet? That's bogus. You'd need a level 13 Missile silo to store that.

Can you like make a bunch of tiny ships and send them to me in packs of like 20 or something? =D  Or you know move into my system, leave your ships elsewhere, and let me raid all those resources? =D  I'd have to make like 20 trips since I wouldn't have the transports for it all even.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on January 20, 2010, 03:15:52 AM
An intimidating defense would be like the one I found tonight.

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 2290
* Laser Cannon: 1715
* Pulse Cannon: 150
* Particle Cannon: 160
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 70
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 182
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 112

Now THAT is a defense...
Attacking with:
2000 Artemis
400 Apollo
600 Athena
100 Ares
400 Hades


They'd take over 17m in losses trying to break through X_X
If someone attacked that with 200 Ares and 200 Bombers, the defender would profit ~3m after their 70% rebuild if they stole the DF.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Munchy on January 20, 2010, 04:01:54 AM
A defense indeed. Just by the number alone that puts puts him on the leaderboard at number 37, and that is not counting defenses on whatever other planets the person has.  :P
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Meepimus on January 20, 2010, 05:21:36 AM
That planet would be its own sun for the amount of beams shooting off.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Atryn on January 21, 2010, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
An intimidating defense would be like the one I found tonight.

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 2290
* Laser Cannon: 1715
* Pulse Cannon: 150
* Particle Cannon: 160
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 70
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 182
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 112

So how long has this person been playing?  I can't help feeling at an extreme disadvantage being less than 3 weeks in and being attacked by people in the top 500...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: GTR Paul on January 22, 2010, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "jrdhpr"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
Did you just pull that out of.......well you know, or do you really think that?

I don't think it, I know it.

It was derived from absolute value(using 3:2:1 ratio for production) and then simulated versus other configurations of equal absolute value. It was the most effective ratio for preventing a wide range of fleet compositions.


What ratio would you then use for ships?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on January 23, 2010, 12:16:22 AM
Also 3:2:1 is max trade value... I wouldn't want to know how you would be able to trade all resources for that max value.

2.5:1.67:1 would be more realistic. I'd like to know if that changes your values.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on January 24, 2010, 05:22:17 AM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
Also 3:2:1 is max trade value... I wouldn't want to know how you would be able to trade all resources for that max value.

2.5:1.67:1 would be more realistic. I'd like to know if that changes your values.
I trade at 3:2:1 all the time ;)
I can look into how it might affect things with the varied trade ratio.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: ansab001 on January 24, 2010, 11:20:46 AM
My personal Ratio is a bit weak on the fodder side but here it is



for every

1 Plasma
3 Gauss
15 Particle
15 Pulse
30 Missiles
30 Lasers

max number of defensive missles
both Decoys

Its an expensive ratio and does hurt when a big gun goes down but i find it tougher to hurt due to the mass number of defenses i have.

(But still doesnt stop me from Fleet saving)

ps fleetsave is GOD!

*bows down*
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: oxymor0n on January 27, 2010, 02:33:34 PM
Quote from: "Meepimus"
That planet would be its own sun for the amount of beams shooting off.

rec'd LOL

right now i'm at

50 missiles
30 lasers
10 pulse
10 particle
5 gauss
+decoys

just following my hunch, no calculation watsoever
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Yogi on January 27, 2010, 05:27:49 PM
I'm at


Missile: x203
Laser: x125
Pulse: x26
Particle: x5
Anti-Ballistic: x20
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x20
Large: x1


Once my Foundry 1 is finished I churn out 3-5 plasma.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: azzaron on January 27, 2010, 07:36:40 PM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
Also 3:2:1 is max trade value... I wouldn't want to know how you would be able to trade all resources for that max value.

2.5:1.67:1 would be more realistic. I'd like to know if that changes your values.

Aaria.moon, you do realize that your ore to crystal relationship is exactly the same as his, right? Both of you have ore being worth 50% more than crystal. The only difference is the hydrogen... and most defensive structures don't even use hydrogen (only gauss and plasma).

As such, using your ratio would probably not change his results very much...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on January 27, 2010, 08:49:15 PM
True enough lol, 3:2:1.3?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on January 28, 2010, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
True enough lol, 3:2:1.3?

The production coefficients for ore, crystal and hydrogen are 30, 20 and 12 respectively.
3:2:1.2 ;)

I haven't had any free time to look into the differences yet. I'll get around to it soon enough.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on January 28, 2010, 12:39:36 PM
What's the difference between production coefficients vs trade values?

Whats with the winky face? PM me if you don't want to say it here :)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: padraic2112 on January 28, 2010, 11:09:02 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
An intimidating defense would be like the one I found tonight.

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 2290
* Laser Cannon: 1715
* Pulse Cannon: 150
* Particle Cannon: 160
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 70
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 182
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 112

Now THAT is a defense...

Where is this Count Rugen, so I may kill him?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Praetorian on January 29, 2010, 07:00:23 PM
Awesome def - gotta do the math, but I think he could save for a Zeus without an attack paying off for anyone ;-)
Though it does invite alliance attacks (think ~1000 IPBM's to soften him up)...
Title: A Treatise on defences
Post by: Ekij on February 03, 2010, 08:37:23 PM
As something of a turtle type I thought I'd write a little about defences and the various merits of the different types.

Lots of players will tell you that you don't need defences, and they're sort of
right ... sometimes. If you can be sure you're always going to be able to fleetsave and mineral save then strictly speaking you don't need defences. However sooner or later you're going to mess up, real life will insist that you miss your fleetsave, when that happens it's comforting to know that you might just have enough defences that the attacker passes you by. Remember this game isn't about being so tough they *can't* attack you, it's about being just a little less attractive than the next guy.

Missile Battery: Obviously the cheapest and weakest. Avoid building too many of these early on (when Poseidon can rapid fire through them), laser are better early but you can use them to bulk up your defence shell using them as chaff. Probably wise to never have more than 50% of your defences being missile battery. It's very easy to use up your left over Ore on these at the end of the day.

Laser Battery: Better than missile battery when you're small but vulnerable to Prometheus rapid fire when you're bigger. Useful to bulk up your defences as chaff. Again advisable not to have more than 50% of you’re defences being missile battery.

Pulse Cannon: Has a good chance of destroying an Atremis in a single shot. This makes the Pulse cannon very effective at destroying attacking chaff and making an attack unprofitable (even if it wins). The best hull for cost ratio makes them least vulnerable to IPBMs (InterPlanetary Ballistic Missiles) but always build ABMs (Anti Ballistic Missiles) to protect your defences. Good defence for early players, vulnerability to rapid fire from Ares means these should be used in moderation by stronger players.

Particle Cannon: The large shield gives this defence some survivability especially against chaff attacks where multiple hits *per round* are necessary to take it out. Alas the high crystal cost makes them painful to churn out in large quantities. Later in the game their vulnerability to rapid fire from Ares means stronger players should use these in moderation.

Gauss Cannon: Great for mid level players, it's immune to rapid fire (except from Zeus) which makes it good for breaking rapid-fire attack runs. Often overlooked by large players who favour one Plasma to three Gauss there is still a place for Gauss in a well-balanced defence.

Plasma Cannon: The big daddy of defences. Capable of destroying battle ships in a single shot (sometimes) the Plasma is a great deterrent but having to rapid fire itself it's vulnerable to being overwhelmed by chaff attacks. Ensure you have plenty of chaff yourself to protect the plasmas. Pulse are a good compliment to the Plasma.

Decoy: Wonderful, as soon as you can build one on every world. It's cheap enough that it can be easily replaced if destroyed and it forces an attacker to send a few big ships with the freighters (when placed on a mining world), the big shield just soaks up the damage even from multiple hits. There's a good reason why you're restricted to just one, it's too good to let you have more than one!

Large Decoy: Similar to the decoy except it's large cost means most people can't replace it easily if destroyed. For homeworld defence it's somewhat lost by the fact that you should have so many other defences that it's % change of getting hit goes down. It's actually less useful than the normal decoy but should still be built on Homeworld/fleetworlds.

As with so many things in this game the answer is balance. There is no single defence that does everything for you, your attacker will adapt to whatever defence you have so you need to have some of ever
Title: Re: A Treatise on defences
Post by: Xight on February 03, 2010, 09:54:03 PM
Quote from: "Ekij"
it's about being just a little less attractive than the next guy.

But I'm prettier than you.  :lol:
Title: Re: A Treatise on defences
Post by: Praetorian on February 05, 2010, 06:28:38 PM
Quote from: "Ekij"
As something of a turtle type I thought I'd write a little about defences and the various merits of the different types.

Lots of players will tell you that you don't need defences, and they're sort of
right ... sometimes. If you can be sure you're always going to be able to fleetsave and mineral save then strictly speaking you don't need defences. However sooner or later you're going to mess up, real life will insist that you miss your fleetsave, when that happens it's comforting to know that you might just have enough defences that the attacker passes you by. Remember this game isn't about being so tough they *can't* attack you, it's about being just a little less attractive than the next guy.

n1. You forgot the countermissile (always have 40+), and personally I switched to lasers for chaff, particle as mainstay and  a 1:2.5 plasma/gauss ratio against capships. Pulse is nice, but after all mine died during the last IPBM attack I didn't bother to rebuild, since particle is so much better because they're hard to kill, which is what you need to give your big guns time to do the real work. But then, I don't build much fleet so I've got crystal to spare.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Ekij on February 05, 2010, 07:10:27 PM
I didn't mention ABM as they aren't a normal defence.
Yes you need ABM in proportion to how heavily defended a world is.
A truly heavy shell needs 40+.
A light shell might be fine with 5.
Again it's all about making the attack unprofitible.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: TheSlorg on February 06, 2010, 11:15:34 AM
On Snailfleet (the non-extreme version of Starfleet), I had the following defense:

1150 x Missile Turret
1000 x Laser Turret
300 x Pulse Cannon
100 x Particle Cannon
1 x Decoy
50 x Gauss Cannon
1 x Large Decoy
23 x Plasma Cannon


It didn't take too much effort to create that defense (just dumping excess resources into it after buying tech upgrades now and then).


That defense held off over 450 ships, including 43 Prometheus and a Zeus.


I ended up with about 2 million total resources in losses after the rebuild. This was completely made up when I collected the entire debris field.


My attacker suffered 25 million total lost resources. Only his Zeus survived to fight another day.

Just to give you an idea.



This defense was later destroyed by 95 IPM's. The attackers spend over 1 million in total resources to knock out my defense, and came away with only 800,000 in earnings.

This was after I had retired, so they wasted 200k resources (+ hydro) to knock out an inactive player. Just a lesson that, if you are active, make sure to build up those ABM's. There are people willing to attack without profit just to knock down a defense.
Title: Re: A Treatise on defences
Post by: ButtheirApparent on February 08, 2010, 10:43:42 PM
Quote from: "Ekij"
As something of a turtle type I thought I'd write a little about defences and the various merits of the different types...
Wow.  This is fantastic.  Thanks!

As a fellow turtle, I was getting worried that unless I was raiding my neighborhood every couple days, l wasn't going to get anywhere. I'd been fleet saving where I could, but hadn't been able to save up enough to A) research and B) build a large enough transport fleet.   I think I may have spread myself too thin.  I did multiple colonies and built those up as quick as I could.  I set up some perfunctory defenses-- half-a dozen missiles and lasers, and that did OK against some newb raids, but before I knew it, I'd crossed the 5000 resources spent mark and was now fair game for everyone.  And come they did.  Saving up my resources to research and build anything resembling a respectful defense only seemed to attract more pillagers.  I've only recently unlocked the "Large Decoy" and have made installing those on my big planets a priority, but that resource cost is hurting.  Where I'm at now, I've got:


I can dream about that Plasma cannon all day.  But that's a ton of research and a long time away.  So far this setup seems to be making other targets more attractive, but from this it sounds like I need to bulk up my fodder defenses if only to spread out the hits away from my expensive guns.

Maybe you'll feel this belongs in the n00b forum, but I was kind of hoping for some guidance for players at earlier levels, I mean players even below my own humble self.  It's true, they don't have to worry too much about Zeuses, but it might be good to give some pointers towards laying the foundations for a decent defense early on.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: LordFerret on February 09, 2010, 07:06:12 AM
Being no defense is impenetrable, I only build in the beginning to fend off approximate equals or lower ranked raiders. For everything, starting with missles, I build 1:5 (fodder principle). For the most part though I see defenses as a waste of res, res that could be used to level-up mines or techs or fleet.

However, I'm still learning so this opinion will possibly change in time. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: A Treatise on defences
Post by: azzaron on February 10, 2010, 05:39:42 AM
Quote from: "ButtheirApparent"
    12 Missiles
    12 Lasers
    8 Pulse
    1 Decoy
    5 Particle
    4 Gauss
    1 Large

Maybe you'll feel this belongs in the n00b forum, but I was kind of hoping for some guidance for players at earlier levels, I mean players even below my own humble self.

Great start! To be honest, I wouldn't spend much more on defense until you get plasma. This is already enough to keep people around your level from thinking of nabbing your overnight resources. Since you said you were fleet saving, that's all you really need to worry about. Until you get plasmas, anyone with a few athena can take that down without losses... so don't worry about pumping it up too much more until then. Spend those resources on tech/ships/mines for now...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Marlboro Mann on February 16, 2010, 05:13:31 PM
"There are people willing to attack without profit just to knock down a defense."

.....I am one of those     :twisted:
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Xela on February 16, 2010, 11:20:23 PM
My strategy is 0 defense! Just interplanetary ballistic ;)
But thats more offensive.
If you understood the game like me you would realize defense is a waste and could only be used if you screw up your fleetsave
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Overlord Othinslayer on February 16, 2010, 11:58:32 PM
For a newer player, I would suggest only building up enough defenses to protect whatever your mines produce while you are offline.  I usually built
1 Decoy
10 Missles
5 Laser

This is enough to dissuade those atlas/herc solo raids.  If you don't leave resources on your planets this is enough to protect your overnight resources from most players, as there is most likely another planet they can target easier.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Ekij on February 17, 2010, 01:36:19 PM
Quote from: "Xela"
If you understood the game like me you would realize defense is a waste

This is an opinion and not a very valid one.
If you are checking the computer every hour defences are not necessary.
If you only raid and have no minerals on your planets defences are not necessary.

Assuming you're a normal player, you sleep for 8 hours and have mines producing minerals while you sleep. Depending on how active your neighbours are you will loose these minerals to raids from time to time.
Whether or not it's worth building defences to disuade these raids while you're not at your computer depends on how strong your neighbours are, how often they scan you, how intimidating you are (since I broke rank 5000 people rarely hunt my mining worlds, they're after my fleet now).

I would say some defences are always useful, personally I build more than the average but people who claim that none are necessary are either on the computer 24/7 or mistaken.

EDIT:
I should add that there is no right number of defences. I add to my defences a little every day, days when I'm probed a lot I add more than days I'm not probed but creeping it up a little all the time helps.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: wolfie on February 17, 2010, 01:56:57 PM
i produce 25K recources a hour on each off my 5 main planets and sleep about 8 hours !
so produce 200K recourses during sleep time
if i not had defences on those planets i am 100% sure that there would be at least 1 raid on each planet for the recources and blowing the few helios in progress.

i find that 10-20 missiles and lasers with 5 gauss and some abm's protect those recources effectifly every night !
not have had a raid during my sleeptime !
i calculate a 2 day production worth of recources invested in defences protect the overnight production on my planets effectif.

2 of my planets are producing ships overnight and have some more heavy defences i just added 3 plasma and 5 more gauss and some pulse/particle there and they did their job also

not have been attacked overnight yet !!
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: texasman77 on February 17, 2010, 02:08:29 PM
I ran across a defense like that one.  Only exception was that it had fewer ABM's.  I think I remember 20-30.  Still, I figured that it would take about 200 nukes to take the place down.  

IMHO... one word.. PLASMA...  If you want to put the hurt on someone attacking, and you fleet resource save regularly.. Then Plasmas are the surest defense.  Now they don't do it alone but I take notice of plasmas way before anything else on that defense list.  Those puppies will take down big ships with one shot and you can expect to loose just as much if you bring fodder or not.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Rubi on February 17, 2010, 02:43:04 PM
Quote from: "texasman77"
IMHO... one word.. PLASMA...  If you want to put the hurt on someone attacking, and you fleet resource save regularly.. Then Plasmas are the surest defense.  Now they don't do it alone but I take notice of plasmas way before anything else on that defense list.  Those puppies will take down big ships with one shot and you can expect to loose just as much if you bring fodder or not.

And including a few hundred missile batteries or lasers will slow the attack down, hopefully causing a second round (or more).  Just remember, each plasma shot will normally take out a ship.  If you build 10 plasmas and can keep the raider attacking for 6 rounds, that's potentially 60 big ships that bite the dust.  Not a bad return on investment.  And if you have 1000 missiles and 750 lasers, 20 gauss, small and large decoy you stand a good chance.

The above should deal with 100x Hades and 100x Athenas attacking.  Even if the raider shoves 500x smaller ships in the mix they'll still lose more than half their fleet, and end up with a draw.  Add 50x Ares and they'll win but the cost will be big.

Obviously proms will help them, but at least you know the hydro costs will have hurt! ;)

Don't diss defence.  It's no use if the raider wants to get you at any cost, but it can be a brilliant deterrant!
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Amodius on February 23, 2010, 06:43:43 AM
In another thread, I posted my view of a defense mindset vs a fleet mindset. I don't consider either of them to be "the best", they're just different play styles.

Somewhere in between turtling your bases, and keeping as much resources as you can off planets (whether it's hauled off, or has it's own warp drive), you'll find a playstyle that works for you, and that you're comfortable with.

To add: I wanted to make a thread here in the strategy section entitled Playstyles, and discuss those two methods, and see if some of the veteran players had any other methods they wanted to add, but I can't figure out how to post a new thread.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Perseus on February 23, 2010, 06:50:31 AM
Quote from: "Amodius"
In another thread, I posted my view of a defense mindset vs a fleet mindset. I don't consider either of them to be "the best", they're just different play styles.

Somewhere in between turtling your bases, and keeping as much resources as you can off planets (whether it's hauled off, or has it's own warp drive), you'll find a playstyle that works for you, and that you're comfortable with.

The only use for defenses I have is to protect overnight resource production and midnight raids that come back while I'm asleep from inactives that couldn't wait 3 hours to be attacked. Building something like 12,000 laser cannons is just stupid. (no, that's not a joke. See the thread with "turtle elimination service" in the title in the battle reports section.  :? )
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 23, 2010, 08:24:46 AM
Ah, now I know who you are perseus :)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Perseus on February 23, 2010, 06:42:50 PM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
Ah, now I know who you are perseus :)

I would hope so, since that's my in-game name also...  ;)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Killigan on March 04, 2010, 05:11:44 PM
You guys have a lot of probably good suggestions as to what would be a good defense, but all of you are leaving out the relevant half of the equation, which is what would be a good defense for X amount of resources[/color]?

100 Hades, 50 Prometheus, 500 Apollo, 300 Missile, 100 Pulse, 50 ABM are not necessary to defend a planet that has < 100,000 total resources.

Ignoring for moment the 1% of idiots that spend 20 million in resources to attack planets with 54 ore, 29 crystal and 200 hydro.

So, how about modifying the question to "What would be a good level defense for each 1,000,000 resources?"

Thanks

Killem All
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Ekij on March 04, 2010, 06:51:33 PM
Quote from: "Killigan"
What would be a good level defense for each 1,000,000 resources?"Killem All

The real answer to that is "Just a little bit more than the person beside you spent to protect their 1 000 000 resources."
It's all about being less attractive than your neighbour.
But thats not what you wanted to see.

To make me seriously consider not coming for your 1M resources you'd need to have something like:
150 Missile
150 Laser
50 Pulse
50 Plasma [I meant Particle]
25 Gauss
10 Plasma
Both decoys (and enough ABMs that it's not worth taking down with IPBMs)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: azzaron on March 05, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
What Erij says is right. However, I would still come after 1M resources with the D he provided - it has almost no fodder. To make me think twice about it, I would have to see something like this:

500 Missile
500 Laser
50 Pulse
50 Particle
40 Gauss
10 Plasma

Plus both decoys and obviously enough ABMs to protect it.

I should also point out that Erij listed Plasmas twice; he meant Pulse the first time he listed it. But it's fun to point out his error   :P
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on March 05, 2010, 01:07:38 AM
If we have the ships to spare, the Valkethian Federation will attack any defence we can overwhelm as long as the ship points gained + resources aquired - other targets available = or > ships lost + hydro spent + time consumed on attack.

= because once the defence has been smashed we can clean up on the second wave.  We may even make a hit that will destroy us utterly in order to weaken the defences, but you'd have to have one hell of a sweet mining operation and stacked resources to drag us into that kind of conflict.

With the sole exception of vengeance strikes. We have a target in each universe who fired one or multiple IPBM's at our colony(s) without even a follow up attack, not that there was anything there worth attacking, or that the defences were so massive that it was causing an itch in the attacker. In the normal galaxy, our attacker is getting a break. We've advanced so fast in extreme that we don't have time to properly look after our lesser equipment in the original, so we entered d mode for now. He's still on our target list though, and the IPBM's are stacking up on two planets within range of him well enough regardless of tax. One day we'll leave d mode, nuke his entire collection of colonies, and then go back into d mode. It will be a fun day.

The extreme target isn't half so lucky. He took out a puny 2 pulse, 2 particle, 10 missile, 10 laser, and 1 small decoy. In the span of a day we've colonised a planet in a system within range of 5 of his well defended colonies, and missile silo level 4 is under construction right now. It will complete as we sleep. When we wake up in the morning, our fleet save with enough res to build 20 missiles will return. Our second fleet will deploy and get there in time to build a second set of 20 missiles by the time the first has finished construction. Our third fleet, which may or may not be necessary, will be right behind that bringing another 20 missiles worth of resources. And then our fourth fleet will make absolultely sure there's nothing left of him.

I will much enjoy his cries of desperation as his massive turtle shell cracks apart in fire. Next time he will choose more carefully who he launches unprovoked missile strikes at. It will be worth the 10 odd million resources we've already committed to this operation, even if we don't get a single ore sample from it.

Supreme Commander Vastet
The Valkethian Federation
Aros 2
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on March 05, 2010, 01:18:57 AM
Or you could have taken those 10 mil in resources and had a nice moonshot...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on March 05, 2010, 01:57:46 AM
No. The moon would have been in a different galaxy, if I'd even gotten one. Revenge is worth infinitely more. I'll let my fleetsave screwups (if I ever have one) provide me a moon shot. Or I'll get Oracled. I doubt very much I'll throw things around for fun in the blind hope that I'll get lucky. This way I KNOW I'm causing pain, and lots of it. It is much more enjoyable.

Supreme Commander Vastet
The Valkethian Federation
Aros 2, Missile Silo
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Killigan on March 05, 2010, 05:50:19 AM
Thanks for the answers, that is a big help, esp. Azzaron and Ekij.  It looks like I'm on the right track, but have a bit more to go before coming out of D mode.

Btw, remind not to attack Vastet.  >.<
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Killigan on March 05, 2010, 05:53:04 AM
Quote from: "azzaron"
I should also point out that Erij listed Plasmas twice; he meant Pulse the first time he listed it. But it's fun to point out his error   :P

lol, you mean he meant 'particle' and it would have been fun to point out if you din't make a similar error?  :P :P
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: texasman77 on March 05, 2010, 06:21:45 AM
Quote from: "azzaron"
What Erij says is right. However, I would still come after 1M resources with the D he provided - it has almost no fodder. To make me think twice about it, I would have to see something like this:

500 Missile
500 Laser
50 Pulse
50 Particle
40 Gauss
10 Plasma

Plus both decoys and obviously enough ABMs to protect it.

I should also point out that Erij listed Plasmas twice; he meant Pulse the first time he listed it. But it's fun to point out his error   :P


Sorry.. that defense is not what will make someone think twice on 1M resources..  

There is ONE key item and one deficit..

Key Item.. # of ABM's..  

20 ABM's = 500K

10 Plasma will take out big ships unless you send fodder but no ABM's then easy to take out..

If the player only has 20 ABM's and 10 PLASMA and I can see a possible profit.. 30 NUKES later and the rest of the D wont put a dent in my Athenas or Hades if they are lower tech then 11.  It will take three runs but hey.. no problem.. It will become a mining colony then.. :) :)

The key is overkill and keeping the battle to 3 rounds or less..  

So.. in conclusion.. If you are going to keep resources on a planet.. and your going to build "D".. You need ABM's..   Leave too much.. and it will be gone the next day regardless of what you put on that planet..  

Oh.. if you leave ships.. then the equations really go out the window.. I have seen planets that I didn't care if I broke through or not.. I just wanted the ship kill points and debri..

Fleet Save or Loose them.. Resource Save.. or risk loosing them..  

Honestly.. Mission time vs. return limits me more than any defense..  If I can't send 20 Atlas at least within an 1:10.. then I probably won't go after it unless I am bored.. LOL
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Ekij on March 05, 2010, 02:05:53 PM
Quote
and obviously enough ABMs to protect it.

Apparently not obvious enough :(

Quote from: "azzaron"
I should also point out that Erij [Ekij] listed Plasmas twice; he meant Pulse the first time he listed it. But it's fun to point out his error.
Actually I meant Particle, so if we're having fun pointing out errors  ... ;)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on March 05, 2010, 04:16:57 PM
Quote from: "Killigan"
Thanks for the answers, that is a big help, esp. Azzaron and Ekij.  It looks like I'm on the right track, but have a bit more to go before coming out of D mode.

Btw, remind not to attack Vastet.  >.<

Attacking my planets isn't any more dangerous than attacking anyones planets. Less actually, since I don't get all pissy when my ships blow up (or at least I won't if it ever happens) and my resources get raided.
However, attacking with missiles for the sole purpose of watching my defences crumble is very dangerous. I take it as an insult. My people demand retribution. They will have it.  :twisted:

Supreme Commander Vastet
The Valkethian Federation
Aros 2
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: vanvely on March 07, 2010, 03:04:20 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
No missile battery?
Also, I'm assuming that this is a ratio, EXCEPT for the ABM part, right? Then again, the ABM number does have to scale up with the rest of the defenses, just not linearly. What does your simulation suggest for ABM count? Just 10-15 always?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: azzaron on March 07, 2010, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: "vanvely"
No missile battery?
It's the first thing listed, dude...  :?

You basically want as many ABMs as you can possibly get. Once you get the second plasma, you definitely want to try to have 30 by then....
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: vanvely on March 08, 2010, 02:08:45 AM
Wow, I must have been drunk...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on March 08, 2010, 05:39:54 AM
Quote from: "vanvely"
Wow, I must have been drunk...
Or temporarily blinded. Those are my two guesses ;)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Victor Doom on March 08, 2010, 06:00:06 AM
:twisted: I would have to say the Large Decoy would intimidate me the most in that defense...  :twisted:
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: migs on April 11, 2010, 02:30:06 AM
Defense is one of the most under-appreciated elements of the game.  Combined with FLEETSAVING, you will be nearly invincible.  Although there are multiple ways to war, several of our members have found an effective balance to defensively deter most enemies even while skipping a fleetsave from time to time.

I will start with what I believe every player’s target goal should be for their homeworld’s defenses.  According to BattleCalc and several top 200 players, you will not be attacked with these defenses unless someone hates you—and even then it would take time to wear your defenses down as no one is likely to take you head on unless they have a death wish. The END GOAL may be daunting to the newest player and even some veteran players, but seeing the finish line is nearly as effective as the most simplified explanations.

END GOAL (as of 4/10/10):
2,000 x Missiles
1,000 x Lasers
300 x Pulse
300 x Particle
1 x Decoy
60 x ABM
200 x Gauss
1 x Large Decoy
100 x Plasma

PROS:
1) Deterrence – This combination of defenses would ravage 99% of the fleets in the game. Whoever decides to attack you would likely lose more in the long run then what you have at your base.  In addition, your defenses have a 70% chance of being rebuilt.  His fleet does not.
2) Fleetsaving – Most top 200 players interviewed would not attack this defense even if your ships were at your home base.  This allows you more flexibility with raiding if you are in a position to log on at random times of the day and don’t want to be limited by a returning fleet. Ask yourself what type of player you are before investing in a defensive shell.

CONS:
1) Resources, time, smaller fleet.

PATH TO SUCCESS:
1) Defenses are easily destroyed by ICBMs. Build 30 ABMs before you seriously begin working on your defense.
2) Unlock and build 20 plasmas.
*With 40 ABMs and 20 plasmas, you will effectively deter/frustrate most players, especially in combination with FLEETSAVE.
3) Build Missiles/Lasers/Pulse/Particles/Gauss at your own pace with the END GOAL in mind.
4) Build 10 or more ABMs and 10-20 more Plasmas as you begin to develop your Athena/Hades/Prom fleet.
5) Halfway to the end goal (see above), you will effectively deter even top 1000 players.
*At this point, some players have found fleetsaving during the day to be inconsequential, especially if they like to log on at random times through the day for a quick raid.  The losses to most fleets are just too high, especially if a good-sized fleet of Athenas/Hades/Proms will be waiting behind the defenses.  ALWAYS fleetsave at night.
6) Continue to the END GOAL at your own pace and based on your perceived threats. You will undoubtedly gain an advantage through deterrence as you scale your desired fleet size with the END GOAL for your defenses in mind.

SCENARIOS:
To emphasize the value of this defensive strategy in numbers through BattleCalc:

An attacker with 333/333/333 Athenas/Hades/Proms would lose 191/153/88 ships.
Losses: 18465000 Ore, 13385000 Crystal, 3615000 Hydrogen.

500/250/250 Athenas/Hades/Proms would result in a draw and losses of 311/125/68  ships.
Losses: 21825000 Ore, 13065000 Crystal, 2895000 Hydrogen.

--------------------------

There are always “what if” scenarios involving multiple members of an alliance attacking your homeworld with 200 ICBMs at once or a high ranked player attacking regardless of any losses he would sustain.  This is why FLEETSAVING is your #1 defense.  However, for typical and predictable game play, you should be safe from most attackers.



...I am building the above post for my alliance. Scanning the board I'm curious to hear if anyone would disagree or would like to input.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on April 11, 2010, 05:54:44 AM
For the same value as what you listed above you could build

Particle Cannon: 632

Gauss Cannon: 146

Plasma Cannon: 35

Decoy: 1

Missile Battery: 3479

Laser Cannon: 3092

Pulse Cannon: 773

Large Decoy: 1

This does twice as much damage to an attacking fleet vs using the exaggerated gauss and plasma numbers.

233 nukes to obliterate your listed defenses, 276 to take out my equal value defenses :)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Ekij on April 12, 2010, 07:06:07 PM
Anyone attacking defences of that size are going to use Ares in the mix and a lot of chaff.
I'd argue that a ratio of 100 Plasma to only 1000 laser is wrong, it needs to be higher.
35 Plasma to 3092 Laser is also wrong (too high).
I'd go for somewhere between these two values but it depends on personal preference to some extent (and person guess as to what fleet will be incoming).

I've had a turtle world knocked over by three large players, they lost as much fleet as they gained fleet points but some people just want to rise up the ranking table and aren't concerned about actual losses, some just like big battles even if they only come out even.

There is no 'nearly invincible' defence mix.
Nor does a snapshot target mean anything, as the game progresses fleets get bigger and therefore defences have to get bigger to continue to be a deterrent.

A calculation that I think is useful is to work out the ratio of "minerals_on_surface + minerals_of_Fleet_in_orbit" vs "minerals spent on defence"

I count the full cost of the fleet in orbit (not the 30% salvage rate) as people also want the killed fleet points.

Look at your neighbours, whats their ratio? Is yours better (safer)?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: migs on April 12, 2010, 07:53:15 PM
Great posts, both of you.  Thank you for the feedback...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on April 12, 2010, 11:00:52 PM
Here is a standard battle that I see. A decent fleet sitting behind the two mentioned defenses. Both defenses are better off nuked then sending in a fleet of zeus to try and whittle it down.

100 plasmas (http://http://test.battlecalc.com/?runsimulation=runsimulation&attship1=&defship1=140&defship14=25&attship2=&defship2=400&attship3=&defship3=190&attship4=10000&defship4=1000&attship5=&defship5=350&attship6=&defship6=150&attship7=&defship7=200&attship8=&defship8=2&attship9=1100&defship9=200&attship10=668&defship10=100&attship11=1000&defship11=200&attship12=200&defship12=100&attship13=&defship13=&attship15=&defship15=&attship16=&defship16=&defens1=2000&defens2=1000&defens3=300&defens4=300&defens5=200&defens6=100&defens7=1&defens8=1&attweapon=13&defweapon=13&attshield=12&defshield=12&attarmour=13&defarmour=13&num_simulations=10&ore=&crystal=&hydrogen=&sim=Simulate)

35 plasmas (http://http://test.battlecalc.com/?runsimulation=runsimulation&attship1=&defship1=140&defship14=25&attship2=&defship2=400&attship3=&defship3=190&attship4=10000&defship4=1000&attship5=&defship5=350&attship6=&defship6=150&attship7=&defship7=200&attship8=&defship8=2&attship9=1100&defship9=200&attship10=668&defship10=100&attship11=1000&defship11=200&attship12=200&defship12=100&attship13=&defship13=&attship15=&defship15=&attship16=&defship16=&defens1=3479&defens2=3092&defens3=773&defens4=632&defens5=146&defens6=35&defens7=1&defens8=1&attweapon=13&defweapon=13&attshield=12&defshield=12&attarmour=13&defarmour=13&num_simulations=10&ore=&crystal=&hydrogen=&sim=Simulate)

Both attacks will win since the attacker has about 8x more resources invested. The 100 plasmas will make the attacker around 5M profit, while the balanced defense will leave the attacker with nothing.

Edit: An intermediate defense was posted a while back which looked good.

LaggyNate posted a ratio of 50:50:5:5:4:1 (http://http://test.battlecalc.com/?runsimulation=runsimulation&attship1=&defship1=140&defship14=25&attship2=&defship2=400&attship3=&defship3=190&attship4=10000&defship4=1000&attship5=&defship5=350&attship6=&defship6=150&attship7=&defship7=200&attship8=&defship8=2&attship9=1100&defship9=200&attship10=668&defship10=100&attship11=1000&defship11=200&attship12=200&defship12=100&attship13=&defship13=&attship15=&defship15=&attship16=&defship16=&defens1=2972&defens2=2972&defens3=297&defens4=297&defens5=238&defens6=59&defens7=1&defens8=1&attweapon=13&defweapon=13&attshield=12&defshield=12&attarmour=13&defarmour=13&num_simulations=10&ore=&crystal=&hydrogen=&sim=Simulate)

Still not as effective as an evenly distributed resource defense.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: RLaburda on April 13, 2010, 02:29:14 AM
I go off the Laggy schema, and it deters enough invaders for overnight production; if the fleet is sitting there, it would deter all but Aaron =/  At least my poseidon swarm would make a prettier mess, but would still bite the bullet.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on April 13, 2010, 03:58:14 AM
I've taken care of my poseidon weakness ;)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: githaron on April 19, 2010, 02:15:55 AM
Current Defense of Home Planet:

Missile: x1600
Laser: x500
Pulse: x450
Particle: x300
Anti-Ballistic: x50
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x200
Large: x1
Plasma: x115

I am working on getting the number of anti-ballistics up. Unfortunately, it will take 170 hours to upgrade my missile silo.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on April 19, 2010, 03:20:59 AM
That's a very unbalanced defense.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Lord Obould on April 20, 2010, 11:11:57 AM
Quick question, Shouldn't you just keep enough defense to deter people from taking your downtime mine production?  Looking thru this thread it seems it is just a waste of resources to build mega defenses.  If someone is determined to get thru they will.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: switch on April 20, 2010, 02:36:31 PM
Good thread everyone, my thanks to the posters.
Especially those who take time to put some numbers and simulations on the table. Interesting simulations on the numbers mentioned earlier Aaria.

I have two question about the economy of ABM defense.

After level five, the Missile Silo becomes expensive. Level six is more than 1.2 million res. And the 10 ABM´s to fill it out is 100K on top. 10 incoming IBM`s would, with equal tech, destroy around 600 Missile Batteries, as an example. The cost of building those would have been 1.2 million res. So in that case I guess you can say the the investment of level six is worth its, or at least almost.

But what about level 7?
Wouldn't it give a better defense to invest the resources in added defense instead of more ABM´s? Better in the sense that it would cost a potential attacker more IBM`s to get too you.


From a cost/benefit perspective you might get more defense that way than building. But couldn't you argue that with a high level of ABM`s you gain a small psychological advantage? Many attackers might feel that their attack is more worth while based on the amount of destroyed defenses and total losses in res of their enemy and target. Some might be deterred by the fact that they have to pay for the IBM´s to chew through 60, 70, 80.. perhaps even 90 ABM´s before the destruction begins.

Such expensive missile silos might be a very silly way to use your resources, but like all buildings its still a permanent investment that you will keep until the end of the game.

--------
The purpose of my defenses in the game is to protect overnight production and transport with or without escorts returning from raids on inactives while I am not online. Solar satellites and perhaps minor amounts of overnight ship production.

I follow Laggynates build ratio and have a defense which is roughly around Laggynates ratio multiplied by 20. I plan to scale that as i advance to at least x40. I am mentioning this to make it proportionate with the high costs of the higher silo levels. Naturally it would make little sense to spend millions on missile level 7 or even 8 if the defense it is protecting is insignificant.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: switch on April 27, 2010, 06:39:07 AM
Bump!

>_<
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Rufus Griffin on May 02, 2010, 02:35:19 AM
Quote from: "Lord Obould"
Quick question, Shouldn't you just keep enough defense to deter people from taking your downtime mine production?  Looking thru this thread it seems it is just a waste of resources to build mega defenses.  If someone is determined to get thru they will.

i mostly agree with this.  you really just want to make your defenses strong enough that the cost to go through them will be greater than whatever can be gained.  not many people are willing to operate at a net loss.  however, it is nice to have a little extra protection if RL makes you miss your fleetsave.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Rod Starjamer on May 13, 2010, 05:37:43 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM


I know that is the common wisdom but I like

20 Missile
30 Lasers
10 Pulse
10 Particale
4 Gauss
1Plasma
as many ABMs as you can get

+25 arties left on station (to break up the Ares rapid fire string and to give me a moon shot)
+1 Poseidon left on station ( best way to attack a turtle is Ares and a swarm of arties)

one of the main reason I have up'ed the Pulse and Particle is I find a bunch of my defensive building is just a resource dump of OCH I don't want to sit on, nor cart around, and some days I'm rich in crystal some days I'm rich in ore ... the Particle/Pulse guns are great for that.  

And if Im going keep a bunch of Arties around I don't want to be so heavy on the missile's
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on May 13, 2010, 06:10:45 AM
Frankly, Laggy's ratio simply invites a nuking. Any time I see more than 1k def fodder, the first strategy to pop in my head is to nuke. The second is to Zeus. Noone needs that ratio to protect overnight, it's the ratio of a turtle. This ratio is quite sufficient, and much more cost effective at protecting overnight res.

1 Plasma
2 Gauss
5 Pulse/Particle
15 Missile/Laser
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on May 13, 2010, 10:20:06 AM
Quote from: "jrdhpr"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
Did you just pull that out of.......well you know, or do you really think that?

My personal defense was to fleetsave what I can each night and use the rest to up defenses. I did this and now have:
Missile: x759
Laser: x238
Pulse: x147
Particle: x150
Anti-Ballistic: x30
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x50
Gauss: x69
Large: x1
Plasma: x10

And still growing.

You have a level 13 Silo?  :|
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: DEMON KNIGHT on May 13, 2010, 09:35:03 PM
Level 13 Silo?????  talk about a waste of resources. :evil:

here's the best strategy ever.  FRS (FLEET AND RESERVE SAVE) If you don't have enough Atlas, Herc's, Dio's to adequately save ALL YOUR RESERVES then you need to BUILD MORE!!!!  Is that in any way unclear????

The difference I am seeing in some of the hits appearing now is that very few of these hits are coming against a true miner.  I'm seeing seriously unbalanced fleets.  Heavy on the assault ships and incredibly light on Cargo's .  A fleeter that loses this kind of fleet is at a slight disadvantage as he will have to que up ships to save if he gets hit in order to avoid getting farmed after the original hit.

Personally my fleet is about 70 to 80% Cargo's and Dio's And I'm finding I need to up the cargo's more as I'm starting to get seriously large amounts of resources needed for mine upgrades in my main galaxy.  this is the safest way to protect your resources.

Defenses will help stave off casual attackers. ABM's are needed to prevent the Profitable nuking followed by cargo raids.  But getting insane with your defense is not necessary.  If you have to sink resources into defense just to keep it all spent then invest in more cargo's.  It really will pay off in the long run over defense.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on May 15, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
Quote from: "Vastet"
Frankly, Laggy's ratio simply invites a nuking. Any time I see more than 1k def fodder, the first strategy to pop in my head is to nuke. The second is to Zeus. Noone needs that ratio to protect overnight, it's the ratio of a turtle. This ratio is quite sufficient, and much more cost effective at protecting overnight res.

1 Plasma
2 Gauss
5 Pulse/Particle
15 Missile/Laser
That ratio will not protect Helios. 140 Helios + 450k res from overnight production makes a good target without proper defenses.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on May 15, 2010, 12:37:42 AM
It will protect 100-200 helios quite well enough if you have enough Plasma to stop a Zeus. Which you should have anyway if your mines produce 900k res in 8 hours.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on May 15, 2010, 04:20:11 AM
Quote from: "Vastet"
It will protect 100-200 helios quite well enough if you have enough Plasma to stop a Zeus. Which you should have anyway if your mines produce 900k res in 8 hours.
People will just throw Proms and Ares at it then.
There's some flexibility with the Pulse and Particle ratios but you certainly need more fodder for defenses than what you've proposed. A versatile defense requires diversity, granted the ratio I provided doesn't work the best for every specific situation but it still preforms well is most situations.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: LunarAvenger on May 15, 2010, 04:34:41 AM
Quote from: "Vastet"
Frankly, Laggy's ratio simply invites a nuking. Any time I see more than 1k def fodder, the first strategy to pop in my head is to nuke. The second is to Zeus. Noone needs that ratio to protect overnight, it's the ratio of a turtle. This ratio is quite sufficient, and much more cost effective at protecting overnight res.

1 Plasma
2 Gauss
5 Pulse/Particle
15 Missile/Laser

it is very similar to laggynates one just with 10 less missile-laser and 1 more plasma.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on May 15, 2010, 10:13:21 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "Vastet"
It will protect 100-200 helios quite well enough if you have enough Plasma to stop a Zeus. Which you should have anyway if your mines produce 900k res in 8 hours.
People will just throw Proms and Ares at it then.
There's some flexibility with the Pulse and Particle ratios but you certainly need more fodder for defenses than what you've proposed. A versatile defense requires diversity, granted the ratio I provided doesn't work the best for every specific situation but it still preforms well is most situations.

If they throw Prometheus and Ares then all my fodder will vanish in the first round because their numbers increase the RF probability. Fodder is useless at the numbers you give. Every single time I've hit someone with crazy fodder counts with a prepared strike force the fodder gets pummelled to 10 or 20% of it's original count in the first round. You NEED more Gauss and Plasma to break RF chains and soak up energy. Otherwise your fodder is useless.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on May 15, 2010, 10:36:06 AM
Quote from: "Vastet"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "Vastet"
It will protect 100-200 helios quite well enough if you have enough Plasma to stop a Zeus. Which you should have anyway if your mines produce 900k res in 8 hours.
People will just throw Proms and Ares at it then.
There's some flexibility with the Pulse and Particle ratios but you certainly need more fodder for defenses than what you've proposed. A versatile defense requires diversity, granted the ratio I provided doesn't work the best for every specific situation but it still preforms well is most situations.

If they throw Prometheus and Ares then all my fodder will vanish in the first round because their numbers increase the RF probability. Fodder is useless at the numbers you give. Every single time I've hit someone with crazy fodder counts with a prepared strike force the fodder gets pummelled to 10 or 20% of it's original count in the first round. You NEED more Gauss and Plasma to break RF chains and soak up energy. Otherwise your fodder is useless.

I do use a slightly modified version of Laggy's ratio (I call it the "Big Gun/Laggynate" defense since his ratio is what inspires mine.)

50xmb (plus more if I have spare ore, which I frequently do)
50xLC
5xpulse
5xparticle
5xGauss
2xPlasma

Multiply as needed.

With the 70% rebuild, fodder defenses rebuild for the most part, and they're cheap, but they soak up fire from everything but Ares, and most people don't use Ares a lot (I do, but I also have warp 8.)

Without sufficient fodder, your plasmas can get taken out by even Athena en-masse. The attacker will take heavy losses, but he can fight through the plasma.

Laggy's ratio provides sufficient fodder, and my addition of an extra plasma and extra Gauss to each multiple of the ratio helps keep people from blowing through it with heavies. In a 2x speed uni like Extreme, where people are throwing around hundreds of capitol ships even on resource raids, that's important.

I have a heavy belt of solar sats, but I've simmed it out, and it is not possible to break through my defense for a profit just to get my overnight production and solar sats without sending multiple Zeus, which I'll have all day to ninja. One can do it, but it would cost them so much hydro to send enough Proms/Ares to do it that it wouldn't be profitable. When you factor in the DF from solars, the overnight production, versus their ship losses and the hydro needed to send a heavy enough force to break through without taking crippling losses, I can't profitably be attacked. Won't stop someone from doing it, but they'll hurt themselves worse than me, even after I rebuild defenses and solar sats. As long as my fleet's not in orbit, my defense will do its job. Hurt the attacker worse than I get hurt.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on May 15, 2010, 10:50:30 AM
here is my defence ratio.  8-)

30xmb
25xLC
4xpulse
4xparticle
5xGauss
1xPlasma
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on May 15, 2010, 10:54:08 AM
Still not enough fodder.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on May 15, 2010, 11:32:49 AM
i bet with my ratio i have more fodder than a fleeter attacking would have.  8-)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vanandapeus on May 16, 2010, 10:05:10 AM
Quite possibly, but defenses also don't have rapid fire, and are heavily susceptible to it. Even without Ares, Lasers and Missile batteries are very vulnerable to Proms and Poseidons, so a defender will NEED a lot more fodder than an attacker.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Rod Starjamer on May 16, 2010, 02:30:34 PM
Quote from: "Vanandapeus"
Quite possibly, but defenses also don't have rapid fire, and are heavily susceptible to it. Even without Ares, Lasers and Missile batteries are very vulnerable to Proms and Poseidons, so a defender will NEED a lot more fodder than an attacker.


well Add a Garrison of ships, arties to break up the Ares rapid fire string ( apollos if you are heavy on Missile Batteries)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on May 16, 2010, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: "Rod Starjamer"
Quote from: "Vanandapeus"
Quite possibly, but defenses also don't have rapid fire, and are heavily susceptible to it. Even without Ares, Lasers and Missile batteries are very vulnerable to Proms and Poseidons, so a defender will NEED a lot more fodder than an attacker.


well Add a Garrison of ships, arties to break up the Ares rapid fire string ( apollos if you are heavy on Missile Batteries)

Those create debris and ATTRACT raiders.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: 2$Bill on May 17, 2010, 04:58:25 PM
While I am no turtle I did invest in defense early on to "Deter" attacks on my overnight mine/Shipyard production.  I then tweeked it when moons came out to operate in a moon rich enviroment.  I followed the following frame of thought.

Missile Bats: soak up IPM attacks.  A couple thousand for starters
Laser Bats: Fleet speed bump.  If you have enough of these you will envoke the use of Prometheus, and best case pre warp 8 ares.  For me, Time is the biggest comodity in this game as anyone attacking would need to MAC in, or really catch me unprepared.  There have been times I wasn't online for a FRS return, but I was within 30 min.  Even in system w/ warp 8 that's 38 min.  Not a lot of time but some breathing room.
Pulse/Particle: Break the rapid fire strings.  These are my fodder as I see them.  I am not trying to kill anything with them although they will do the job, but I am trying to break a RP sting and since it's ares and zues, (Even more of a speed bump) I threw most of my defense spending into them.  
Guass and Plasma:  I remember teching to plasma and building one as soon as I did, to say that I had.  The only thing I really see them good for is stopping RP stings as I think that anyone that has cracked a turtle knows that they are easily overwhelmed with fodder.  I keep 10-20 around as a general deterant as well as a few score of Guass to give anything past round three some pain.  

I have found that this deters hits on my three main worlds to cover production out of the lvl 2 foundries and keeps the mines production nonprofitable.  On a good day I can collect 7 mil in raids plus my mines, upgrade building and fleet and not overly worry about fodder built overnight.



Since The oracles, I would say that without a moon you need to build enough of a defense to make hitting your fleet costing them your fleet's debris field's resources in IPMs.  Or just leave it there and get a moon yourself.  Either way, if you don't have a moon you need to break your fleet up, mac out of range (as long as you can) or go (d).  I know that you can operate in oracle range but most players won't devote the time.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Randrew R. Rummond on May 21, 2010, 02:03:30 PM
What I don't think has a lot of value are the particles.

The Pulse does more damage and against a serious attack both are going to die.

Also, there are a number of comments in the thread about people defending against pre-Warp 8 Ares.

In any serious defense attack, the attacker has Warp 8.

You need to be able to deal with the turtle breaker.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Angelwatch on June 01, 2010, 12:55:47 AM
My homeworld is heavily defended.  I originally set out to protect overnight production and I started using defenses as a dump for excess resources.  I haven't spent much lately on defenses but right now this is my homeworld:

Missles: 1850
Lasers: 400
Pulse: 55
Particle: 60
Gauss: 22
Plasma: 15
Both Decoys
ABMs: 60

If someone nuked me, it would take, roughly, 125 missiles to wipe out all my defenses.  That's over 3 million in resources.  I fleet and resource save religiously so it's enough to deter people from probing and attacking.  I know that my "ratios" could use some work so any advice would help.  I just threw resources at defenses and didn't really pay attention to resources.

One last thing, in a lot of arguments people are saying "Build Missile Batteries and Laser Cannons to soak up nukes."  One flaw with that, if I nuke a planet I'm going to target their Plasmas first and stagger my launches to hit their Gauss Cannons next.  That's my goal if I need to remove the big guns from the board.  Otherwise the advice is sound as 2000 missile and laser cannons are enough to soak up a lot of nukes.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on June 01, 2010, 06:51:53 AM
Quote from: "the420penguin"
what is a good plasma:gaus ratio
At least 4:1 on gauss:plasmas. They are good for adding a bite to a defense but are not very cost efficient on their own.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Asrrin29 on June 05, 2010, 08:36:30 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "the420penguin"
what is a good plasma:gaus ratio
At least 4:1 on gauss:plasmas. They are good for adding a bite to a defense but are not very cost efficient on their own.


Gauss get quite out of control with the damage they do if you have more than 100.  I ran some battlecalcs on someone who was Gauss heavy and had few (if any) plasmas.  The sheer number of them, plus fodder so they last multiple rounds, can easily bring down even Proms.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on June 05, 2010, 09:08:32 PM
Quote from: "Asrrin29"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "the420penguin"
what is a good plasma:gaus ratio
At least 4:1 on gauss:plasmas. They are good for adding a bite to a defense but are not very cost efficient on their own.


Gauss get quite out of control with the damage they do if you have more than 100.  I ran some battlecalcs on someone who was Gauss heavy and had few (if any) plasmas.  The sheer number of them, plus fodder so they last multiple rounds, can easily bring down even Proms.
I was referring to the Plasma as being the not as cost efficient defense.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Asrrin29 on June 08, 2010, 03:27:10 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "Asrrin29"
Quote from: "Laggynate"


Gauss get quite out of control with the damage they do if you have more than 100.  I ran some battlecalcs on someone who was Gauss heavy and had few (if any) plasmas.  The sheer number of them, plus fodder so they last multiple rounds, can easily bring down even Proms.
I was referring to the Plasma as being the not as cost efficient defense.

Well, by themselves plasma are useless, however with appropriate fodder they are a major deterrent.  Also, Having a sufficient amount of plasmas forces the use of Proms/Ares which gives you more time to react to attacks.  Combat mathematics may say Plasmas aren't cost effective, however the real world application gives them an advantage over every other defense in the game.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Big S on June 08, 2010, 04:18:09 AM
Quote from: "the420penguin"
plasma force them to make peace with loseing a few capitols

for the most part

most overnights arnt worth that

Along those lines, my view on plasmas is that they force you to do one of two things:
1) Accept loss of capitals
2) Send a big fleet of just Proms (and maybe some fodder depending on defense setup)

So you have a choice of losing capitals or spending a ton of hydro. But with the new stealth tactics, you fly your fleet in once, and use the low cost of the in-system attack to offset the big cost of using proms in such big numbers (a little).

Reason this came to mind was because I just found someone with a fair number of plasmas sitting on 2million hydro with 10 Hercs, lol. The only real cost effective way I can get my paws in that honey jar is to pop in with a Gaia cloak and then proceed to hit it with Proms and fodder. But I just realized I sent my Gaia's to the wrong MAC, lol. So now I'm waiting.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Pogo947 on June 23, 2010, 05:42:01 PM
I have battle calced it and 50 arties take out a plasma with only 2 arties killed
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on June 25, 2010, 02:23:55 AM
Quote from: "Pogo947"
I have battle calced it and 50 arties take out a plasma with only 2 arties killed
Anyone that has a defense made purely out of Plasma Cannons deserves for horrible things to happen to that planet.
That's the whole idea of a ratio :)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: AngelSpirit on July 07, 2010, 12:06:22 PM
Right now I'm sitting at:

Missile: x120
Laser: x116
Pulse: x21
Particle: x21
Anti-Ballistic: x26
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x7
Gauss: x15
Large: x1

Rank 30k.  Currently researching Plasma 7.
Although, I just unlocked Proms, should I invest in those or Plasma Cannons?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on July 07, 2010, 03:55:29 PM
i can launch 100 hades 100 athena and not lose a single ship to a def like that.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: AngelSpirit on July 07, 2010, 05:33:07 PM
Of course.  It's only meant to hold off light raids until I get stronger.

I'm only rank #30k, gdi.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: samielb on July 07, 2010, 06:22:17 PM
Yes, invest in plasma cannons.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: 2$Bill on July 07, 2010, 07:23:08 PM
invest in more pulse and particle.  That will kill off fodder and keep raiders at bay.  otherwise, use those resources for research in infrastructure.  Where you are at in the game doesn't require you to have all that much defense.
Title: Question about your proposed Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 16, 2010, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM


As a ratio, I find this perplexing.

I'm assuming you're suggesting 10-15 ABM's to cover ratio losses as a whole, however, in ratio, 10-15 ABM's is nuts.

Are you determining this defensive ratio with a maximum defensive effectiveness with a set goal in mind? Or are you suggesting it where relative growth is concerned?

Where are you on ABM:Plasma ratio as you grow? Should you stop when it's no longer profitable to continue to supply ABM's to cover the ratio? Or do you adjust the ratio of coverage to protect Gauss? Plasma? Both?

I've got a couple newer guys here in TopGun curious about defenses and I'd like to give them a straight answer, but personally, I'm not the right person to ask. I've built my defenses to support my fleet in the case that a natural disaster ever occurs and my fleet is left at home for hours, so my ratio's are ever so slightly different.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on July 16, 2010, 11:05:59 PM
here is mine

1 plasma
8 guass
4 particle
7 pulse
40 lc
45 mb
lvl 6 silos 40 abm 10 ibm's
30-50 plasmas depending on feeder hive setup.
seems to work well enough.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 16, 2010, 11:53:56 PM
:o  that post was meant to be a PM to laggy lol
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Got2BTru on July 22, 2010, 06:08:04 AM
@Brian C...MISS YOU in UniMatrix0!

My defenses (for permanent colonies) are:
Missile: x1250
Laser: x1250
Pulse: x150
Particle: x150
Anti-Ballistic: x50
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x10
Gauss: x50
Large: x1
Plasma: x26

* Will be upping the Gauss / Plasma to 100 / 50...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Renegade on July 23, 2010, 06:53:44 AM
This is the ratio I like :D

Missile: x80
Laser: x65
Pulse: x12
Particle: x12
Anti-Ballistic: x40+
Gauss: x4
Plasma: x1

As many ABMs as you can afford, but there is no point in ever going above 80 ABMs as after that it's cheaper to just build more plasma cannons, and those have the same effect.
Basically upgrade your silo when it doesn't feel like its going to cost more than 1 limb!

I've been toying with the idea of going up to x6 Gauss but I need to run a few more simulations first.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on July 23, 2010, 09:21:33 AM
personally i go up to 8 on guass.

why not only the zeus has rapid fire against them and i would love for some zeuses to try and attack one of my hive worlds.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 23, 2010, 10:08:01 AM
Quote from: "Got2BTru"
@Brian C...MISS YOU in UniMatrix0!

My defenses (for permanent colonies) are:
Missile: x1250
Laser: x1250
Pulse: x150
Particle: x150
Anti-Ballistic: x50
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x10
Gauss: x50
Large: x1
Plasma: x26

* Will be upping the Gauss / Plasma to 100 / 50...

Heya G2, I miss some of you too. When I'm not getting crystal deposits from 75 players because I probed someone a galaxy away  :lol:

Anyways, your defenses are pretty similar to mine, I've been considering adjust my ratios a little bit, now that I'm starting to work on building defenses again. My main worry is finding that fine line between enough ABM's to cover the important bits of my defense, and trying not to flirt with it.

Obviously, a player stands to lose a LOT of resources if they cannot build up enough ABM's to support defenses such as a plasma cannon, which is why I try not to build more plasmas than I have ABM's.

At some point, when you've got a massive fleet looking at you, you have to adjust your ABM ratios to suit a need, be it enough to cover a select portion of your defenses, or just enough time to have single colony attackers stand little chance at taking you out overnight trying to build IPBM's to lob at you.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Dread Pirate Ragnar on July 23, 2010, 09:01:55 PM
Quote from: "Renegade"
This is the ratio I like :D

Missile: x80
Laser: x65
Pulse: x12
Particle: x12
Anti-Ballistic: x40+
Gauss: x4
Plasma: x1

As many ABMs as you can afford, but there is no point in ever going above 80 ABMs as after that it's cheaper to just build more plasma cannons, and those have the same effect.
Basically upgrade your silo when it doesn't feel like its going to cost more than 1 limb!

I've been toying with the idea of going up to x6 Gauss but I need to run a few more simulations first.

How do you figure? I haven't seen a plasma cannon kill an IPM yet...or are those built in the same shipyard that produces Battle Charons?  :shock:
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on July 23, 2010, 10:23:44 PM
Quote from: "Dread Pirate Ragnar"
Quote from: "Renegade"
This is the ratio I like :D

Missile: x80
Laser: x65
Pulse: x12
Particle: x12
Anti-Ballistic: x40+
Gauss: x4
Plasma: x1

As many ABMs as you can afford, but there is no point in ever going above 80 ABMs as after that it's cheaper to just build more plasma cannons, and those have the same effect.
Basically upgrade your silo when it doesn't feel like its going to cost more than 1 limb!

I've been toying with the idea of going up to x6 Gauss but I need to run a few more simulations first.

How do you figure? I haven't seen a plasma cannon kill an IPM yet...or are those built in the same shipyard that produces Battle Charons?  :shock:

figure that for silo lvl 9 it is cheaper to build 10 plasmas. those 10 plasmas will soak the same amount of ibm's damage as 10 abm's.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: T.Rex on July 23, 2010, 11:22:26 PM
Yes but the plasmas are one use only.  The silos can be refilled.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on July 24, 2010, 03:09:51 AM
ok you go for the 10 extra abm's from lvl 8 silo to lvl 9, for the same cost i can get 100 plasmas.

and if you go from 8-10 i can get an extra 300 plasmas.

or from 8-12 silo so that you have an extra 40 abm's i can have 1500 plasmas.

see how this is going? those extra silo lvls aren't giving your def any extra teeth.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Dread Pirate Ragnar on July 24, 2010, 03:32:38 AM
oh okay I see where you are coming from. Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: switch on July 26, 2010, 11:06:39 PM
I have a planet with a pretty decent defense and in building it, I have followed the ratio suggested by Laggynate. Lets just say that there is something like 5 to 50 times the ratio on the planet. I don't want to be specific.

Currently I have some players with ares/prometheus heavy fleets threatening that specific planet.


IF i decide to pump more ressources into the defensive structures on that planet, which modification should i do to that defense, so that it becomes stronger in resisting that type of incoming fleet?

Do I continue to build following that ratio, or switch now and just build Plasma Cannons? Gauss? More batteries?


Thank you for your input.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Dread Pirate Ragnar on July 27, 2010, 12:19:29 AM
Without doing all of your legwork for you, let me just say go look at what those ships rapid fire on. Don't build those.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 27, 2010, 01:38:41 AM
When I get the time and transition this week, defensive effectiveness, cost effective defense building, ratio's, and all other sorts of scenario's will be covered in my latest theorycrafting thread.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 27, 2010, 09:50:50 AM
Feast your eyes upon these statistics.

Note, these are not concrete facts yet because I believe Laggy and I both used different values to adjust for a common value (assuming he did this), although these statistics are a DIRECT correlation of Laggy's Ratio compared to mine, so, regardless of what he used, in my ratio of O:C:H which is set at the Trade Merchant value of 2.5:1.5:1, the results should be the same unless he used a 1:1:1 ratio in which case the Adjusted Value of his defenses and mine will completely differ.

Anyways, I have not ran the different comparisons through rigorous testing as of yet, and believe me, I will do so. This comparison is merely statistical and preliminary. Since nobody has really tried to come up with a cost effective ratio challenging Laggy's ratio, I figured I'd give it a whirl since I did a fleet based cost/effective value thread already.

Anyways, enough 4:48AM rambling.

Quote
Defense Ratio CE BC vs. Laggy

BC Ratio:
MB: 104  AV: 208,000 BA: 8,320 BS: 2,080 BH: 20,800
LC: 89   AV: 207,815 BA: 8,900 BS: 2,225 BH: 17,800
Pu: 22   AV: 205,480 BA: 5,500 BS: 2,200 BH: 17,600
Pa: 17   AV: 204,340 BA: 2,550 BS: 8,500 BH: 13,600
GC: 4    AV: 200,200 BA: 4,400 BS: 800   BH: 14,400
PC: 1    AV: 208,050 BA: 3,000 BS: 300   BH: 10,000

Laggy Ratio:
MB: 50   AV: 100,000 BA: 4,000 BS: 1,000 BH: 10,000
LC: 50   AV: 116,750 BA: 5,000 BS: 1,250 BH: 10,000
Pu: 5    AV: 46,700  BA: 1,250 BS: 500   BH: 4,000
Pa: 5    AV: 60,100  BA: 750   BS: 2500  BH: 4,000
GC: 4    AV: 200,200 BA: 4,400 BS: 800   BH: 14,400
PL: 1    AV: 208,050 BA: 3,000 BS: 300   BH: 10,000


BC AV: 1,233,885
BC BA: 32,670
BC BS: 16,105
BC BH: 94,200


Laggy AV: 731,800
Laggy BA: 18,400
Laggy BS: 6,350
Laggy BH: 52,400


Rounded to the nearest thousandth
BC/LG AV: 1.686:1
BC/LG BA: 1.776:1
BC/LG BS: 2.536:1
BC/LG BH: 1.798:1


Legend:

BC= BrianC
LG= Laggy
AV= Adjusted value
BA= Base Attack
BS= Base Shield
BH= Base Hull

the rest you can figure out as defensive structures.

Note that the BC/LG numbers show the average cost, as in, my setup costs 1.686 times more than his, so any statistic above that number, suggests my setup is physically stronger, though I have not ran the dozens of scenarios of fleet compositions against either defense.

I did take my defenses vs. his X2 against 500 Artemis and 50 Hades to check an "on a whim" comparison for "losses" on both of our sides, and as it turned out, the scenario I chose using 13's as control techs across the board, showed my ratio being more effective, and less of a loss. However, again, I haven't tested either ratio against a true fleet composition.

Edit: I believe the "test" for "losses" to compare the RSP differences was ran with both large and regular decoys.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 27, 2010, 10:02:22 AM
Screw it ran the BC's so I can post it up for people to look at and fool around with.

Quote
Laggy's ratio x2 + both decoys vs 500 artemis 50 hades

Simulation Results
Rounds Completed: 5. Result: Attackers win!
Attackers won 100.0% of battles, Defenders won 0.0% of battles and you drew 0.0% of battles.
Attacker
Ships Remaining:

Artemis Fighter: 415

Hades Battleship: 50
Ships Lost:

Artemis Fighter: 85
Losses: 255000 Ore, 85000 Crystal, 0 Hydrogen
Defender
Ships Lost:

Particle Cannon: 10

Gauss Cannon: 8

Plasma Cannon: 2

Decoy: 1

Missile Battery: 100

Laser Cannon: 100

Pulse Cannon: 10

Large Decoy: 1
Losses: 225000 Ore, 123000 Crystal, 22800 Hydrogen
Debris now floating: 76500 Ore, 25500 Crystal. Recyclers required: 6. Moon chance 0.7%
Max Debris now floating: 108900 Ore, 54300 Crystal. Recyclers required: 9. Max Moon chance 1.1%


Quote
BC's ratio + 2 decoys vs. 500 artemis and 50 hades

Simulation Results
Rounds Completed: 5. Result: Attackers win!
Attackers won 100.0% of battles, Defenders won 0.0% of battles and you drew 0.0% of battles.
Attacker
Ships Remaining:

Artemis Fighter: 405

Hades Battleship: 50
Ships Lost:

Artemis Fighter: 95
Losses: 285000 Ore, 95000 Crystal, 0 Hydrogen
Defender
Ships Lost:

Particle Cannon: 17

Gauss Cannon: 4

Plasma Cannon: 1

Decoy: 1

Missile Battery: 104

Laser Cannon: 89

Pulse Cannon: 22

Large Decoy: 1
Losses: 209250 Ore, 108150 Crystal, 11400 Hydrogen
Debris now floating: 85500 Ore, 28500 Crystal. Recyclers required: 6. Moon chance 0.8%
Max Debris now floating: 117900 Ore, 57300 Crystal. Recyclers required: 9. Max Moon chance 1.2%
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on July 27, 2010, 10:40:24 AM
so for 1.681 of the cost you kill 10 more artemis.

here is the thing people go with any ratio you want, just know that any amount of def wont protect your fleet.

think of it like fleets with no rapid fire, you want fodder for your big guns other than that make sure that you have some abm's to make the hydro cost go up to nuke out your def and call it a day.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vanandapeus on July 27, 2010, 11:29:49 AM
Quote from: "the enforcer"
so for 1.681 of the cost you kill 10 more artemis.

here is the thing people go with any ratio you want, just know that any amount of def wont protect your fleet.

think of it like fleets with no rapid fire, you want fodder for your big guns other than that make sure that you have some abm's to make the hydro cost go up to nuke out your def and call it a day.
Actually BC's defense is the cheaper, he used 2x Laggy's ratio. One test isn't saying much though, particularly since he hasn't gone into detail with turtle busting fleet setups, but I'm assuming there will be more calcs run later.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 27, 2010, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: "Vanandapeus"
Quote from: "the enforcer"
so for 1.681 of the cost you kill 10 more artemis.

here is the thing people go with any ratio you want, just know that any amount of def wont protect your fleet.

think of it like fleets with no rapid fire, you want fodder for your big guns other than that make sure that you have some abm's to make the hydro cost go up to nuke out your def and call it a day.
Actually BC's defense is the cheaper, he used 2x Laggy's ratio. One test isn't saying much though, particularly since he hasn't gone into detail with turtle busting fleet setups, but I'm assuming there will be more calcs run later.
Precisely.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 27, 2010, 05:36:08 PM
Quote from: "the enforcer"
so for 1.681 of the cost you kill 10 more artemis.

here is the thing people go with any ratio you want, just know that any amount of def wont protect your fleet.

think of it like fleets with no rapid fire, you want fodder for your big guns other than that make sure that you have some abm's to make the hydro cost go up to nuke out your def and call it a day.

BC/LG AV: 1.686:1
BC/LG BA: 1.776:1
BC/LG BS: 2.536:1
BC/LG BH: 1.798:1

divide these figured by 2, and that's the adjustment for my defense vs. his in the two scenarios.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 27, 2010, 10:28:50 PM
I've ran a couple more sims and they go both ways (with laggy's defenses doubled), in the cases where his beat mine, I can add a single plasma cannon and beat his again.

What I'm going to have to figure out, is how to equalize my ratio to his ratio to get the same adjusted value across the board and compare the two, without breaking the ratio's up. And currently, my brain is switched off, so I'll get some adjustments up later.

Really, I think it's going to be about finding a common denominator between his AV and my AV, or perhaps I'll just multiply his by 10, and then use my ratio to fill in an equivalent AV appropriate ratio to make up for the difference.

I dunno. Perhaps in the wee hours of the morning I'll get to work on it.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on July 28, 2010, 05:48:22 AM
It's purely based on the composition of the attacking fleet. The ratio I suggested fares poorly against large numbers of Artemis and high shielded ships. It does however fare much better against the more typical capitol oriented fleets.

The weak points of the ratio I posted are:
Weakness to High Fodder + High Shield Ship builds

The string points of the ratio I posted are:
20-33% more inflicted losses to Poseidon-Prometheus oriented builds
Greater response to reinforcement by ships (especially fodder) <- Makes ninjas on a budget easier

Brian, you can play around with it and I can post some numbers up later to explain what I meant in earlier posts about the ratio I posted being more versatile than most.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 28, 2010, 06:01:24 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
It's purely based on the composition of the attacking fleet. The ratio I suggested fares poorly against large numbers of Artemis and high shielded ships. It does however fare much better against the more typical capitol oriented fleets.

The weak points of the ratio I posted are:
Weakness to High Fodder + High Shield Ship builds

The string points of the ratio I posted are:
20-33% more inflicted losses to Poseidon-Prometheus oriented builds
Greater response to reinforcement by ships (especially fodder) <- Makes ninjas on a budget easier

Brian, you can play around with it and I can post some numbers up later to explain what I meant in earlier posts about the ratio I posted being more versatile than most.

The biggest issue between the two ratios is that you went with a 3:2:1 ratio, which I find perplexing, whereas I went with a 2.5:1.5:1 standard merchant ratio.

If my fuzzy, quick, and brain dead math is correct, using your ratio, my ratio actually because considerably more powerful than the previous ratio.

As you can tell, mine is balanced around resources being as equally spread out as possible.

In the scenarios I talked about earlier, my cost was considerably smaller, but lost in a couple scenarios, but with the addition of a single plasma, it was pretty one sided.

It'll take me a while to analyze the differences and get some real simulations done based on real world scenarios, but I'm pretty optimistic that my ratio will show to be pretty well balanced, and exceptionally defensive (note the large increase in shielding power between the two ratios) which I believe will make it more powerful to use against fodder, at first glance.

I think the most important note to take from our suggestions is that while they tailor to a specific purpose, they are, in many scenarios, amplified considerably by the supporting fleet on the planet, and that each individual should look at their current weaknesses and adjust based on our ratio's.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Dread Pirate Ragnar on July 29, 2010, 03:16:00 AM
Quote from: "BrianC"

The biggest issue between the two ratios is that you went with a 3:2:1 ratio, which I find perplexing, whereas I went with a 2.5:1.5:1 standard merchant ratio.

I thought the standard ratio was 2:1.5:1?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 29, 2010, 03:17:11 AM
Hire Trade Merchant
Merchant
   
The Trade Merchant will come to your planet to facilitate a one-time resource exchange. He will instantly exchange resources at the official ratios of 2.5:1.5:1 Ore:Crystal:Hydrogen. However, he cannot trade a resource beyond your planet's capacity.

Are you sure you want to pay 5000 Credits to hire The Trade Merchant?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on July 29, 2010, 04:51:30 AM
Here are some hard numbers for you ;)

The SMC was determined using your preferred ratio of 2.5:1.5:1

Quote from: "My Defense Ratio"
Missile Battery: 841
Laser Cannon: 841
Pulse Cannon: 84
Particle Cannon: 84
Gauss Cannon: 67
Plasma Cannon: 17
Decoy: 1
Large Decoy: 1

Synaptic Metal Cost: 12,493,567

Quote from: "Your Defense Ratio"
Missile Battery: 1,040
Laser Cannon: 890
Pulse Cannon: 220
Particle Cannon: 170
Gauss Cannon: 40
Plasma Cannon: 10
Decoy: 1
Large Decoy: 1

Synaptic Metal Cost: 12,493,333

All simulations will be done with attackers and defenders with combat techs of 14/14/14 @8,500 simulations.

Quote
Scenario 1 -> Large amounts of Fodder and Highly Shielded Ships
Attacker
5000 Artemis
500 Hades

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 1,764,000 Ore, 648,000 Crystal and 30,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 5 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 2,808,000 Ore, 996,000 Crystal and 30,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

Scenario 1 is highly unlikely as the attacker loses a significant portion of their fodder. A more likely situation is players sending a heavy capitol fleet to reduce losses.
Quote
Scenario 2 -> Heavy Capitol Ships
Attacker
200 Athena
100 Ares
200 Hades
100 Prometheus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 1,315,000 Ore, 840,000 Crystal and 255,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 810,000 Ore, 505,000 Crystal and 150,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

To reduce losses further, the attacker may opt only to send Ares and Prometheus

Quote
Scenario 3 -> More Heavy Capitol Ships
Attacker
300 Ares
300 Prometheus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 460,000 Ore, 250,000 Crystal and 135,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 310,000 Ore, 175,000 Crystal and 90,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

If they player is relatively close by and is looking to raid your planet for 750K+ resources something like below may be sent to ensure resource capture and reduced losses.
Quote
Scenario 4 -> Even More Heavy Capitol Ships
Attacker
300 Ares
500 Hades
300 Prometheus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 330,000 Ore, 315,000 Crystal and 135,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 220,000 Ore, 210,000 Crystal and 90,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

The lone Zeus test.
Quote
Scenario 5 -> Zeus Wave 1
Attacker
1 Zeus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 5,000,000 Ore, 4,000,000 Crystal and 1,000,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 749,500 Ore, 377,500 Crystal and 78,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 6 Rounds - DRAW
Losses Attacker: 0 Ore, 0 Crystal and 0 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 1,390,500 Ore, 650,500 Crystal and 78,000 Hydrogen

As you can see each defensive ratio has its own merits.

The ratio I suggested is more useful in keeping players from raiding your planets in ordinary situations though.
While you can crack the one I suggested using a lot of fodder, it doesn't make sense unless the defender leaves nearly 2m resources or a fleet behind it.
However, sending a more practical fleet of capitol ships to raid for resources results in greatly reduced losses for the attacker.
This greatly lowers the threshold for how much needs to be left before it is worth attacking.
In this category of attacks, my ratio inflicts ~30% more damage, thus making it the less attractive target.
Just because yours looks better on paper doesn't mean it works better out in the field ;)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 29, 2010, 05:14:37 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Here are some hard numbers for you ;)

The SMC was determined using your preferred ratio of 2.5:1.5:1

Quote from: "My Defense Ratio"
Missile Battery: 841
Laser Cannon: 841
Pulse Cannon: 84
Particle Cannon: 84
Gauss Cannon: 67
Plasma Cannon: 17
Decoy: 1
Large Decoy: 1

Synaptic Metal Cost: 12,493,567

Quote from: "Your Defense Ratio"
Missile Battery: 1,040
Laser Cannon: 890
Pulse Cannon: 220
Particle Cannon: 170
Gauss Cannon: 40
Plasma Cannon: 10
Decoy: 1
Large Decoy: 1

Synaptic Metal Cost: 12,493,333

All simulations will be done with attackers and defenders with combat techs of 14/14/14 @8,500 simulations.

Quote
Scenario 1 -> Large amounts of Fodder and Highly Shielded Ships
Attacker
5000 Artemis
500 Hades

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 1,764,000 Ore, 648,000 Crystal and 30,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 5 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 2,808,000 Ore, 996,000 Crystal and 30,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

Scenario 1 is highly unlikely as the attacker loses a significant portion of their fodder. A more likely situation is players sending a heavy capitol fleet to reduce losses.
Quote
Scenario 2 -> Heavy Capitol Ships
Attacker
200 Athena
100 Ares
200 Hades
100 Prometheus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 1,315,000 Ore, 840,000 Crystal and 255,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 810,000 Ore, 505,000 Crystal and 150,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

To reduce losses further, the attacker may opt only to send Ares and Prometheus

Quote
Scenario 3 -> More Heavy Capitol Ships
Attacker
300 Ares
300 Prometheus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 460,000 Ore, 250,000 Crystal and 135,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 310,000 Ore, 175,000 Crystal and 90,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

If they player is relatively close by and is looking to raid your planet for 750K+ resources something like below may be sent to ensure resource capture and reduced losses.
Quote
Scenario 4 -> Even More Heavy Capitol Ships
Attacker
300 Ares
500 Hades
300 Prometheus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 330,000 Ore, 315,000 Crystal and 135,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 3 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 220,000 Ore, 210,000 Crystal and 90,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen

The lone Zeus test.
Quote
Scenario 5 -> Zeus Wave 1
Attacker
1 Zeus

Defender
Standard Defenses

My Defense Ratio Results: After 4 Rounds
Losses Attacker: 5,000,000 Ore, 4,000,000 Crystal and 1,000,000 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 749,500 Ore, 377,500 Crystal and 78,000 Hydrogen

Your Defense Ratio Results: After 6 Rounds - DRAW
Losses Attacker: 0 Ore, 0 Crystal and 0 Hydrogen
Losses Defender: 1,390,500 Ore, 650,500 Crystal and 78,000 Hydrogen

As you can see each defensive ratio has its own merits.

The ratio I suggested is more useful in keeping players from raiding your planets in ordinary situations though.
While you can crack the one I suggested using a lot of fodder, it doesn't make sense unless the defender leaves nearly 2m resources or a fleet behind it.
However, sending a more practical fleet of capitol ships to raid for resources results in greatly reduced losses for the attacker.
This greatly lowers the threshold for how much needs to be left before it is worth attacking.
In this category of attacks, my ratio inflicts ~30% more damage, thus making it the less attractive target.
Just because yours looks better on paper doesn't mean it works better out in the field ;)

So run the tests with "Out in the field" fleets, where there is minimum of 6:1 Fodder:Capitol, and maximum of 10:1 Fodder:Capitol. Hell, play with Babam's setup of 10:1 Artemis:Athena design and test the two.

Scenario 1 is about the only legitimate scenario I see there, and my setup wins by leaps and bounds. The other three scenarios key on RF against defenses, where you are winning merely by the grace that your "30% more damage" is coming from targets unable to be cursed by rapid fire. What you're keying on is having defenses alone, and while I will not begrudge you for that notion, your scenarios skew towards bunker busting, in which my defense, nor yours, is built for.

Scenario 4 is simply, you have enough Plasma cannons to kill a Zeus, which is not the design behind my ratio. Saying that, Ratio's 2 and 3 are extremely close, given the RF bias.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 29, 2010, 05:35:52 AM
These were done with  AWS 13/13/13 because that's what was saved into the sim.

Babam Scenario 5,000 artemis and 500 athena @ 5,000 simulations

Yours:
Attacker's losses:1,782,000 Ore, 594,000 Crystal and 0 Hydrogen
Defender's losses:5,865,500 Ore, 3,007,500 Crystal and 644,000 Hydrogen

Mine:
Attacker's losses:2,745,000 Ore, 915,000 Crystal and 0 Hydrogen
Defender's losses:6,435,000 Ore, 3,065,000 Crystal and 380,000 Hydrogen


RW Scenario @ 6:1 Fodder:Capitol x2 defenses @5,000 simulations

Yours:
Attacker's losses:3,067,000 Ore, 1,056,000 Crystal and 37,000 Hydrogen
Defender's losses:11,671,000 Ore, 5,955,000 Crystal and 1,288,000 Hydrogen

Mine:
Attacker's losses:4,157,000 Ore, 1,418,000 Crystal and 29,000 Hydrogen
Defender's losses:12,810,000 Ore, 6,070,000 Crystal and 760,000 Hydrogen

RW Scenario @ 10:1 fodder:capitol x2 defenses @5,000 simulations

Yours:
Attacker's losses:2,493,000 Ore, 863,000 Crystal and 27,000 Hydrogen
Defender's losses:11,671,000 Ore, 5,955,000 Crystal and 1,288,000 Hydrogen

Mine:
Attacker's losses:3,464,000 Ore, 1,156,000 Crystal and 8,000 Hydrogen
Defender's losses:12,810,000 Ore, 6,070,000 Crystal and 760,000 Hydrogen



RW Scenario & 6:1 = 200 proms, 300 hades, 100 ares, 600 athena, 400 poseidons, 7,200 artemis.
RW Scenario @10:1 = 200 proms, 300 hades, 100 ares, 600 athena, 400 poseidons, 12,000 artemis
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on July 29, 2010, 05:54:31 AM
If there is a weak point in a defense, the attacker will find it and exploit it. This is why your approach is flawed...
You shouldn't be looking for the ratios for the attackers that cause the least favorable results.
Universally, the sims you posted fared worse than either Scenario 3 or 4 that I did.
If an attacker can reduce their losses by sending some ships instead of others they will.
Consequently, the fact that your defense fares significantly better against large fodder fleets doesn't matter, they just won't send 10k Artemis and will instead send heavy capitol ships.

In this category of actual and reasonable attacks, my defense keeps the attackers losses consistently higher. They can start profiting off your defenses 200k resources before they can for mine.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 29, 2010, 06:11:29 AM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
If there is a weak point in a defense, the attacker will find it and exploit it. This is why your approach is flawed...
You shouldn't be looking for the ratios for the attackers that cause the least favorable results.
Universally, the sims you posted fared worse than either Scenario 3 or 4 that I did.
If an attacker can reduce their losses by sending some ships instead of others they will.
Consequently, the fact that your defense fares significantly better against large fodder fleets doesn't matter, they just won't send 10k Artemis and will instead send heavy capitol ships.

In this category of actual and reasonable attacks, my defense keeps the attackers losses consistently higher. They can start profiting off your defenses 200k resources before they can for mine.

Actual and reasonable attacks?

Define it. I Have never, nor will I ever, send out a Zeus on an attack. I have never, nor will ever send a capitol only fleet at any one. And I'm willing to bet everything in the world, the universe, all of existence, that the guys asking the questions here, aren't going to be seeing capitol only fleets, as much as they will see high fodder fleets.

Bottom line, high fodder fleets are a logical choice for any type of attack, and as this thread is not defined with the question....."what defense ratio is best so I can leave my resources out every night", the idea of skewing your scenarios to fit your defensive mindset of anti bunker busting doesn't make it an exclusive and definitive ratio.


Fact of the matter is, against a real world, out in the field fleet, my defense will fair better than yours, and that's likely to remain so with a comparable fleet.

If your concept is simply how to build a defense that will be effective against bunker busting while remaining relatively effective against a real world fleet, I'm not going to challenge you.

My ratio is built for cost effective defenses against real world fleets, not to keep players from sending a billion Zeus/proms/ares/poseidon at me. In which case, you're still losing as much as I am, and presumably the DF will be swept before you even log in to see it, so in reality, both defenses lose.



As far as the sims faring worse universally, how do you figure?

The idea wasn't to multiply our defenses until they start winning, but to double them to provide the attacker with an approximate 4 round victory against. Else our defenses wouldn't have been truly tested.


Edit:

as for the "flawed" approach due to attackers finding our weaknesses........

Everything has a weakness Laggy, everything. There is no end all be all build to defenses or ships. Some are just tougher to crack than others.

If you're talking about having 500K overnight resources, our ratio's wouldn't get attacked, bottom line. It would cost too much, and would end up unprofitable. So really, the flawed approach is thinking that because a weakness can be found, losing less is better than losing more, even while you are losing.

The best defense in that scenario, is no defense at all.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on July 29, 2010, 07:09:25 AM
I'm not quite sure I understand your application of defenses. If they aren't for protecting resource production, what are you using them for?
Because if you are protecting yourself from players from actually profiting off your resources the ratio I show does that significantly better.
"Bottom line", no matter what the composition of the fleet the player sends they typically need to turn a profit to launch.

In terms of profitability, you have a two opposing forces, gains and losses.
Gains are comprised of capture and recovered debris.
Losses are comprised of launch costs and ship losses.

The resource equation is defined as capture + recovered debris - launch costs - ship losses.
If this is significantly greater than zero from the attackers perspective, they will attack.

The key for defenders is to cause launch costs and lost ships of the attacker to be as high as possible to deter possible attacks.
The key for attackers is to optimize capture, launch costs and ship losses.

Two points of objection in your analysis:
By stating that "real fleets" are heavily Artemis ratio'd and that they invariably will attack with equally heavy amounts of Artemis is a fallacy.
If an attacker can extract more profit by withholding their fodder and sending in only their heavy capitol ships, they will.
Also, saying that people nearby don't have the number of capitol ships I posted is just plain silly.
There will always be a bigger fleet out there than your defenses can handle, you just have to make sure that the resource equation remains negative for them.

This seems to be the root of your misunderstanding as believe that a defense's merit is in how it does when it successfully forces a draw after 6 rounds.
This shows a failure to utilize the concept of the resource equation.
A defenses true merit is in how well it deters attacks. If an attacker can't throw any combination of ships at a target to make it worthwhile, you have succeeded in protecting your assets.

Once it is established that the purpose of the defenses on a planet is to prevent the possibility of profitable attacks, one needs to set about throwing various fleet compositions from different distances do determine if it is indeed possible that it may be worthwhile for an attacker to launch an assault.

Using the above concepts, the ideal defense would inflict enough damage on an attacker that making overnight attacks on your planet would be unprofitable, regardless of fleet composition.

Your ratio doesn't do that. It's great against foddered fleets, but falls off rapidly if the attacker sends heavy capitol ships instead. The rating of a defense should be how much resources it can protect(as defined above in profitability) from a wide range of fleet compositions and sizes as a function of the defenses cost.

Because the function of defenses cost of the two ratios were set equal, the only variable is what is the maximum resource count that can be present on a planet and remain unprofitable.

Using this criteria, and the base ratio of your defense, mine can protect 20k more resources for the equivalent cost. This means when it is scaled up to the defense quantities used in my simulations (fairly linear) my defense of equal equivalent cost can protect ~200k more resources from profitable attacks than yours.

There probably are better general use defense ratios out there than the one I posted in my first post, but it certainly isn't the one you posted...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 29, 2010, 07:36:46 AM
Let's level with each other, as your argument is a fallacy.

Where your ratio is better, it is barely better.
Where my ratio is better, it is significantly better.

You just added a novel about profitability and gathering resources etc.

Let me edit that novel a bit.

If you are concerned about defenses protecting overnight production, you will not get the debris field.
if you are concerned about defenses protecting overnight production, either ratio will work for anyone's overnight production

You realized this when you did the simulations, that both ratios work well for overnight production, and that the only reason an attacker would attack, would be if their profit made up for their loss, which is always the case, however. The only scenario for my defensive ratio suggests the attacker would never get the chance to attack me, as the prerequisite 750K+ resources, is never met.

Example, their losses.

Losses Attacker: 220,000 Ore, 210,000 Crystal and 90,000 Hydrogen

In order to make a profit with 300 Ares 500 Hades 300 Prometheus, I'd have to have 440,000 ore, 420,000 crystal, and 180,000 Hydrogen, on planet, to break even. This doesn't include the cost to send such a massive fleet, which is going to cost them  70K+ in system, and 170K+ 1 system over, in Hydrogen.


Which means they would need to make 160k Hydrogen in system, or 260K hdyrogen 1 system over, which means I have to have 320K-520K Hydrogen, in overnight production.


Now, if you make 440,000 ore, 420,000 crystal, and 320k-520K Hydrogen over an 8 hour period, I applaud you, as you make the same amount of Hydrogen on ONE planet in 8 hours, as I do on 7 planets in 24 hours.


There's the problem with your equation, your scenario, and your logic.

Pick a better, and more logical argument next time.


The only case where your argument fits as far as the attacker wanting to come after you wish such a large fleet, is either A, to make ZERO profit in an effort to clear your defenses out for when you get to pick off his fleet later on, or B. When the target isn't FRS'ing.

In which case, if the target isn't FRS'ing, my defense works better because the attacker would have to use fodder to clear a fleet effectively. Especially soin your case where your "power" is so great, and it's weakness is met.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Bravicus on July 29, 2010, 07:51:23 AM
There is one scenario that Brian's ratio will be better than laggy's but that is only if you have made a mistake and you now have a timed attack (oracle, reverse ninja or blind-o) headed your way and you can't dodge it by fleetsaving however this is based on the assumption that the attacker is likely to send a foddered fleet because they need it.  And the end result of this is that they still make a profit.

Who knows maybe your d can deter the attack but we no defense isn't a replacement for fleetsaving and it also isn't a replacement for playing smart, what it is is a good way to keep 8 hours of overnight production safe.  And while it is risky to send a zues on an attack for fear of it being oracled, it is a very effective way to grab somebody's overnight, no losses and high cargo space.  Also a zues is the least profitable thing to attack.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 29, 2010, 07:55:19 AM
Now that we have that argument out of the way, let's discuss the practicality of defenses which you've questioned in my "reality" of how defenses are used.

Option A: To protect overnight resource production.
Option B: To support your fleet should it get attacked from a missed FRS, more of a deterrence in this case as your defenses should compliment your fleet.
Option C: To support your fleet in an oracle lock scenario in the chance that it could prevent an oracle lock from happening given the defenses being significant enough to prevent a profit from occurring.
Option D: to inflate RSP. People research useless techs all the time, build unnecessary crew droids, and all sorts of fun options to waste resources. Why not put them into (d) where you'd be able to inflate your RSP and overall rank faster than any other option, thanks to the missile battery being the most effective inflation tool, outside of the probe.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: BrianC on July 29, 2010, 08:06:55 AM
Quote from: "Bravicus"
There is one scenario that Brian's ratio will be better than laggy's but that is only if you have made a mistake and you now have a timed attack (oracle, reverse ninja or blind-o) headed your way and you can't dodge it by fleetsaving however this is based on the assumption that the attacker is likely to send a foddered fleet because they need it.  And the end result of this is that they still make a profit.

Who knows maybe your d can deter the attack but we no defense isn't a replacement for fleetsaving and it also isn't a replacement for playing smart, what it is is a good way to keep 8 hours of overnight production safe.  And while it is risky to send a zues on an attack for fear of it being oracled, it is a very effective way to grab somebody's overnight, no losses and high cargo space.  Also a zues is the least profitable thing to attack.


The Zeus is actually the ONLY scenario where my defense ratio that laggy provided, loses significantly. Every other ratio is either very close to being equal, an impossibility of occurrence, or I win with significantly better effectiveness.


Caveat to the Zeus scenario. Double the defenses and I destroy it. In all likelihood, add a dozen Plasma and I'll likely win.

The downside to my ratio, and only in the ratio Laggy posted, was that I could not defeat a Zeus with defenses alone, in that ratio.

Even then, that's assuming the person FRS's for 8 hours, and you catch it as they FRS, at which point, they haven't produced enough resources to A. Be profitable for the usage of that fleet slot, and B. to present the given scenario.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on July 29, 2010, 10:09:06 AM
8 hours is 1.6m rez +75 atlas
hows this look.  8-)

Missile: x2535
Laser: x1995
Pulse: x395
Particle: x195
Anti-Ballistic: x50
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x15
Gauss: x385
Large: x1
Plasma: x50
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: WGW on August 22, 2010, 02:58:52 AM
Hmmm .. #37? Prolly not ... one of my planets has this config - and I can assure you I am NOT #37!

Missile: x2270
Laser: x2200
Pulse: x275
Particle: x275
Anti-Ballistic: x60
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x200
Large: x1
Plasma: x98
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: wolfe uk on August 26, 2010, 06:16:31 PM
so i guess my

10 missiles
10 lasers

would'nt shoot the flys splat on your cockpit !!
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on August 26, 2010, 06:39:36 PM
i have several feeders that look more like this.

Missile: x75
Laser: x45
Anti-Ballistic: x20
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x25
Large: x1
Plasma:  x10

they have yet to be attacked.  8-)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on August 26, 2010, 06:47:21 PM
Admittedly, I was a religious fleetsaver, and after I had all my main planets mooned (which I did early) my fleet never touched my planets anyway.

That being said, the following defense protected (in Extreme, where there's less galaxies and more huge fleets roaming around) 125 sats and up to a million in resources (sometimes more) on each of my 4 primary worlds:

350 mb
350 lc
35 pulse
20 particle (should be 35 particle, but I hate spending crystal)
35 Gauss
14 Plasma
Both decoys
40+ ABM

It's basically Laggy's ratio, but with double the plasma and less particle. I doubled the plasma to keep people from hitting me with just Proms for my overnight (as I did to people all the time). This is not an adequate defense to protect from oracle locks or a sub for fleetsaving, but I was never attacked with this defense for my 125 sats and over a million res (if I didn't log in for 24 hours) on planet.

It's foolish to build more. No amount of D will protect your fleet from a determined attack.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: lazoputz on August 28, 2010, 02:22:27 PM
Gentlemen, (and Ladies) I am far from being a mathematician like some of you guys, so I would like to present my current home planet defense screen to you with the following 3 questions:
1: would this be considered an adequate "turtle" for protecting my stuff?
2: what would it take to bust it?
3: what would be the best way to balance out the units for better effectiveness?

missile batteries: 5400
laser cannons:      300
pulse cannons:     300
particle cannons:  200
ABMs:                   50
small decoy:        yes
IBMs:                   10
large decoy:         yes
gauss cannons:    200
plasma cannons:  200

I don't know how you guys are able to do the math required to figure stuff like this out but perhaps that would explain why I ended up a carpenter instead of a rocket scientist.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on August 28, 2010, 03:34:17 PM
ran a calc gave you 13 for wsa.

Battle on: Fight at Unknown [x:xxx:x]
Result: | Attacker wins (100%) | after ~ 3 rounds
Debris Field: 1,363,800 Ore; 615,900 Crystal; 99 Recycler
Attacker's Losses: 4,546,000 Ore, 2,053,000 Crystal and 239,000 Hydrogen
Defender's Losses: 27,510,000 Ore, 15,010,000 Crystal and 6,400,000 Hydrogen
Moon Chance: Chance that a moon forms is 13.2%

i would launch against you if there was 11m/6m/3m+ rez sitting on your planet or if you had enough in df to make the attack net me 35k sd points or more.
def wont stop you from being attacked.
i would suggest not relying on def to keep you safe, just keep your stuff in frs.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: lazoputz on August 28, 2010, 04:24:19 PM
Thanks for your reply. I realize that defenses wouldn't protect me and I always FRS but I just want to make my planet as unattractive as possible against random attacks. If I were at war specifically with anyone, no amount of defenses would save me. I also have 3 zeuses that I sometimes leave behind. Good idea or foolishness?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on August 28, 2010, 05:01:05 PM
9m*3/1000=27k sd points now you would almost be in my sights.

zueses left sitting are targets, always.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Dread Pirate Ragnar on August 28, 2010, 05:48:36 PM
I would add more lasers, as they will help to break up RF strings on your missiles, and they're cheap.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Topgun on August 30, 2010, 01:59:16 AM
My Favorite ratio for defense is
(1 Defense unit)

Missile:10
Laser:10
Pulse:5
Particle: 3
Gauss: 2
ABM:2
Plasma:1


remember 2 things about building defenses. First build enough to protect your overnight production (basically 10 units per 100k of resources). Second, never use defense in place of fleetsaving.

Here is why you should ALWAYS fleetsave...
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9954 (http://forum.playstarfleet.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9954)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: T.Rex on August 30, 2010, 02:43:50 AM
Quote from: "Topgun"
My Favorite ratio for defense is
(1 Defense unit)

Missile:10
Laser:10
Pulse:5
Particle: 3
Gauss: 2
ABM:2
Plasma:1

Ummm don't think you can put ABMs into a ratio.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: switch on August 30, 2010, 08:44:02 AM
Leaving zeus behind with your defensive grid is a very bad idea.

I took out 4 zeus at a guy doing that a couple weeks back with a friend. We nuked him clean with about 200 missiles and managed to break more or less even. Later on his fleetsave returned and overalll we made a good profit.

My point is, people are looking for destroyed ship points, even if they wont make a huge profit because of the size of your defense.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on August 30, 2010, 10:00:29 AM
Here's another reason why FS > Turtle. 239 mil DF in Extreme. 7 attackers + 10 missilers. And they still made a big profit.

http://http://forum.playstarfleet.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9190&hilit=chode
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Topgun on August 30, 2010, 03:36:20 PM
@Trex: ABMS need to be included in defense ratios, even if they cant be built in exactly the ratio that I have listed. My ratio is just a guide...
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: AngelSpirit on August 31, 2010, 03:25:40 AM
The ratio for defenses you should use generally depends on what you expect said defense to do.

As it stands, my (unbalanced) ratio is:
30x   Missile
30x   Laser
15x   Pulse
5x   Particle
7x   Gauss
1x   Plasma

I keep a higher concentration of Pulse to stop RF strings on the fodder, and high numbers of Gauss since they do more damage per unit of cost than Plasma.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Dread Pirate Ragnar on August 31, 2010, 05:06:46 AM
If you are in Uni2 you want to go laser heavy on your defenses right now, nobody can build a ship that rapid fires on them yet. They are only vulnerable to Prometheus, Ares, and Zeus, while a lot of people are unlocking Poseidons to rapid fire on missiles.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on August 31, 2010, 06:37:09 AM
Quote from: "Dread Pirate Ragnar"
If you are in Uni2 you want to go laser heavy on your defenses right now, nobody can build a ship that rapid fires on them yet. They are only vulnerable to Prometheus, Ares, and Zeus, while a lot of people are unlocking Poseidons to rapid fire on missiles.

Stop giving away trade secrets!  :lol:

Defense strategy in a young uni is vastly different than a mature one. Missiles are like Artemis; they're the first thing you unlock, but they're far more effective late game than early game. Lasers are the most cost effective d right now in uni 2.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: 2$Bill on August 31, 2010, 11:47:05 AM
so are my probes in Uni2 not a viable d???


OH GOD!!!
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Topgun on September 02, 2010, 04:19:22 AM
Quote from: "AngelSpirit"
The ratio for defenses you should use generally depends on what you expect said defense to do.

As it stands, my (unbalanced) ratio is:
30x   Missile
30x   Laser
15x   Pulse
5x   Particle
7x   Gauss
1x   Plasma

I keep a higher concentration of Pulse to stop RF strings on the fodder, and high numbers of Gauss since they do more damage per unit of cost than Plasma.

Not bad, but Id rather have the 3 particles and 2 plasmas for the trade off of 1 gauss.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: wolfe uk on September 08, 2010, 03:07:29 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
An intimidating defense would be like the one I found tonight.

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 2290
* Laser Cannon: 1715
* Pulse Cannon: 150
* Particle Cannon: 160
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 70
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 182
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 112

Now THAT is a defense...
Attacking with:
2000 Artemis
400 Apollo
600 Athena
100 Ares
400 Hades


They'd take over 17m in losses trying to break through X_X
If someone attacked that with 200 Ares and 200 Bombers, the defender would profit ~3m after their 70% rebuild if they stole the DF.


would'nt be surprised if he CAN move the universe when that lot fires off, perhaps he is GOD
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: SFC expert on September 08, 2010, 03:14:10 PM
Quote from: "wolfe uk"
Quote from: "Laggynate"
An intimidating defense would be like the one I found tonight.

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 2290
* Laser Cannon: 1715
* Pulse Cannon: 150
* Particle Cannon: 160
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 70
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 182
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 112

Now THAT is a defense...
Attacking with:
2000 Artemis
400 Apollo
600 Athena
100 Ares
400 Hades


They'd take over 17m in losses trying to break through X_X
If someone attacked that with 200 Ares and 200 Bombers, the defender would profit ~3m after their 70% rebuild if they stole the DF.


would'nt be surprised if he CAN move the universe when that lot fires off, perhaps he is GOD


That is 3-4 months old too.Right now they are people with 60K laser and missiles.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on September 10, 2010, 01:37:56 AM
With regards to very early game defense, favor laser over missile and pulse over laser. Poseidon aren't threatened much by laser cannons but are very vulnerable to Pulse Canons. Once Athena appear in quantities <15-20 per fleet, it's a different ball park and Gauss are required. Decoys are incredibly useful early on as they can either force a draw or push the battle an extra 2-3 rounds inflicting more damage than the attacker would be willing to take.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Admiral Firebringer on September 11, 2010, 02:15:20 PM
25 plasma
100 gauss
max anti ballistic
both decoys
50 pulse
50 particle
500 laser
10000 missile
This is what I will stop at, nah I will never stop


I FRS to
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on September 11, 2010, 02:22:13 PM
oh no that will take out just under 800 worth of fodder...

and lasts all of 2 rounds.

you should leave a zues out too so i can turn a profit.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: SFC expert on September 12, 2010, 01:03:45 AM
Something intimidating would be like this:

10 000 missiles
10 000 lasers
5000 pulse
3000 particle
2500 gausses
1000 plasma
both decoy and around 80 abm.BUT keep in mind that building a fleet is always better than building defenses.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: lazoputz on September 12, 2010, 11:22:53 AM
Quote from: "SFC expert"
Something intimidating would be like this:

10 000 missiles
10 000 lasers
5000 pulse
3000 particle
2500 gausses
1000 plasma
both decoy and around 80 abm.BUT keep in mind that building a fleet is always better than building defenses.

Sheesh, have I EVER got a long way to go. Guess what I have would be better called a soft shell tortoise
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: SFC expert on September 12, 2010, 06:57:48 PM
I doubt someone has something like this but I could easily be wrong.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Laggynate on September 12, 2010, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: "SFC expert"
I doubt someone has something like this but I could easily be wrong.
I've got a player nearby me has the above defense minus 500 Plasma Turrets.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on September 12, 2010, 07:08:09 PM
You never need that much defense if you're FRSing properly. I protected 125 sats and high overnight production with less than 2 mil worth of defense.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: switch on September 12, 2010, 07:12:46 PM
We are turning in circles here. Even with big defense, you still need to fleetsave properly. Everyone should understand that.

I did a simulation with the defense mentioned above, and an average rank 100-150 fleet.
A force of five times that fleet, with AWS tech one level higher could still make a slim profit in that attack.

Larger fleets exists of course, and we are starting to see hephs floating around with 3K + proms and ares these days.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Pogo947 on September 12, 2010, 07:50:05 PM
...My hw has no defense. Its a waste of time and resources. It doesnt stop people.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: T.Rex on September 14, 2010, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: "Pogo947"
...My hw has no defense. Its a waste of time and resources. It doesnt stop people.
Of course it does. And this is an important issue in the new universe.  There are some people who really will advocate no defense.  To me this is only possible in the middle part of the game. In the beginning people will farm those with no defense because every crumb is important.  In the end, you should have hundreds of sats and therefore will need defense.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Shield5169 on September 14, 2010, 01:36:43 PM
Missile: x6433
Laser: x2000
Pulse: x1000
Particle: x1000
Anti-Ballistic: x60
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x392
Large: x1
Plasma: x172

Just waiting for someone to give me a battle before calling it a day  :)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on September 14, 2010, 02:27:08 PM
takes 2 rounds to punch through vs my fleet, leave out 3 zues and i break even.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: K1productions on November 10, 2010, 05:47:15 PM
Now that I've built the foundry and enough mines to support the building cost, I've experimented with a different ratio for max power rather than fodder.

Mi-10, La-10, Pu-2, Pa-2, Ga-2, Pl-1

This puts me in a position of "leveling up" my main planet's defenses every morning (after fleet and resource saving through the night), and possibly another level up before bed, unless I allocate resources to mine or ship building.  Most of the other planets aren't far behind (except for those that don't have enough fields yet)

So, right now this puts my homeworld at:
Missiles - 390
Lasers - 390
Pulse - 78
Particle - 78
Gauss - 78
Plasma - 39
+ Decoys

after a while I may increase the fodder amount, but until then I'm hoping the big guns would discourage most attacks, especially since I don't leave resources sitting on my planets for too long.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on November 10, 2010, 06:20:44 PM
Quote from: "K1productions"
Now that I've built the foundry and enough mines to support the building cost, I've experimented with a different ratio for max power rather than fodder.

Mi-10, La-10, Pu-2, Pa-2, Ga-2, Pl-1

This puts me in a position of "leveling up" my main planet's defenses every morning (after fleet and resource saving through the night), and possibly another level up before bed, unless I allocate resources to mine or ship building.  Most of the other planets aren't far behind (except for those that don't have enough fields yet)

So, right now this puts my homeworld at:
Missiles - 390
Lasers - 390
Pulse - 78
Particle - 78
Gauss - 78
Plasma - 39
+ Decoys

after a while I may increase the fodder amount, but until then I'm hoping the big guns would discourage most attacks, especially since I don't leave resources sitting on my planets for too long.


I would have ate this for breakfast with my fleet in X and I'm not too far away from doing the same with my uni2 fleet. Not nearly enough fodder. If there's enough profit behind this, I'll punch through this with an Artemis screen so fast you'll be too dazed to even start rebuilding Dios when you log on. If the DF is even still there.

Please stick to this ratio and send me your coordinates.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on November 10, 2010, 08:01:55 PM
Defenses are to protect overnight resources poetic, and to discourage attacks. Having about a third of your ship RSP as defenses gives you a 40% stonger defense if you fail on a short fleetsave. For those defenses you'd be looking at an ideal fleet of about 3000 artemis. For the size he is it might be too much or too little, either way everybody knows theres no defense strong enough to park behind everynight, unless you're a miner with only cargo ships which this game has now become.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: poeticmotion on November 10, 2010, 08:25:22 PM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
Defenses are to protect overnight resources poetic, and to discourage attacks. Having about a third of your ship RSP as defenses gives you a 40% stonger defense if you fail on a short fleetsave. For those defenses you'd be looking at an ideal fleet of about 3000 artemis. For the size he is it might be too much or too little, either way everybody knows theres no defense strong enough to park behind everynight, unless you're a miner with only cargo ships which this game has now become.

Defenses should only be depended on for overnight production and sat protection. I always assume the worst; that the #1 player in the game is going to MAC in while I'm sleeping. I don't count on my defenses ever protecting my fleet; I'm not going to waste res building a turtle that might protect me if I screw up a fleetsave. Especially since by mid-game my fleet is rarely at my defended worlds anyway.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: K1productions on November 10, 2010, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: "poeticmotion"
Quote from: "K1productions"
Now that I've built the foundry and enough mines to support the building cost, I've experimented with a different ratio for max power rather than fodder.

Mi-10, La-10, Pu-2, Pa-2, Ga-2, Pl-1

This puts me in a position of "leveling up" my main planet's defenses every morning (after fleet and resource saving through the night), and possibly another level up before bed, unless I allocate resources to mine or ship building.  Most of the other planets aren't far behind (except for those that don't have enough fields yet)

So, right now this puts my homeworld at:
Missiles - 390
Lasers - 390
Pulse - 78
Particle - 78
Gauss - 78
Plasma - 39
+ Decoys

after a while I may increase the fodder amount, but until then I'm hoping the big guns would discourage most attacks, especially since I don't leave resources sitting on my planets for too long.


I would have ate this for breakfast with my fleet in X and I'm not too far away from doing the same with my uni2 fleet. Not nearly enough fodder. If there's enough profit behind this, I'll punch through this with an Artemis screen so fast you'll be too dazed to even start rebuilding Dios when you log on. If the DF is even still there.

Please stick to this ratio and send me your coordinates.
I haven't built it up all the way yet, I only just started.  And two, its not profitable at all because there are no resources on my planets while I sleep, except for what my mines provide.  I'm not an idiot, of course I fleet/resource save
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Aaria.moon on November 11, 2010, 12:41:57 AM
Quote from: "poeticmotion"
Defenses should only be depended on for overnight production and sat protection. I always assume the worst; that the #1 player in the game is going to MAC in while I'm sleeping. I don't count on my defenses ever protecting my fleet; I'm not going to waste res building a turtle that might protect me if I screw up a fleetsave. Especially since by mid-game my fleet is rarely at my defended worlds anyway.

What K1 said though, its a good defense for overnight res. Of course that defense wouldn't stop a featherweight of a fleet in any of the universes.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: the enforcer on November 11, 2010, 03:29:40 AM
this works well enough for me.  protects 32/29/25 mines and 215 helios. keeps it small enough that people think they can come take it.  :lol:

Missile: x7
Laser: x2
Pulse: x2
Particle: x2
Anti-Ballistic: x20
Decoy: x1
Interplanetary: x25
Gauss: x1
Large: x1
Plasma: x1
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: LunarAvenger on November 11, 2010, 03:41:05 AM
I dunno, defenses are not vital. but they do serve a purpose.

I recently causally farmed Biv until he made 170 plasmas to prevent causal farming.

As for you turtles... i dunno if I wanna help you guys. I keep seeing planets with stuff like this.

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 21,752
* Laser Cannon: 30,245
* Pulse Cannon: 4,595
* Particle Cannon: 1,255
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 100
* Decoy: 1
* Interplanetary Ballistic Missile: 0
* Gauss Cannon: 459
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 232

I mean seriously? That much defense is asking to be nuked in my corner of the universe.

P.S. the planet no longer looks like that, the lasers and plasmas were nuked away by 5+ players.

The ratio Laggy posted at the beginning is perfectly fine.

Not enough fodder and a swarm of ships will kill everything with minimal losses.
not enough punchers and a fleet of only capitol ships will kill everything without losses.

nuff said. Make fleet, fleetsave for a week if you have too. I know people who do that.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: LunarAvenger on November 11, 2010, 04:19:45 AM
sorry for the double post, just another issue to bring up.

You can make defenses on a moon.
If you have enough defenses then ABM are almost moot. (lets face it if your gonna throw 1000 nukes at a planet what is another 40? 60?)

That is the only argument I can see for defenses on a moon. But they will get nuked for the shits and giggles of it.

Your choice, live or die.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: 2$Bill on November 11, 2010, 01:46:19 PM
What about sats?   I like to put sats on all of my moons because you don't need very many to run the mines.  And for protecting them I usually put 10 laser turrets and a decoy.  I don't want anyone killing my sats afterall.  I mean, my mining income on moons would be effectivly crippled.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Admiral Firebringer on November 12, 2010, 02:34:56 PM
Mines on moons?
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Bizmuth Helm on November 12, 2010, 02:46:52 PM
I use moon sats to power up my Lithium Droids
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: 2$Bill on November 12, 2010, 04:31:32 PM
Quote from: "Admiral Firebringer"
Mines on moons?
They are hard to find because their production is so small.  
Quote from: "Bizmuth Helm"
I use moon sats to power up my Lithium Droids
I have been told that my droids as well as me need to be on lithium.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Emotionless Vulcan on November 14, 2010, 05:08:17 PM
I'm not trying to insult turtles, so don't get mad, but I don't really see the point of a lot of defences.  The way I see it, if you fleetsave people have no reason to attack and defences have no use, and they offer no bonus when you do an attack yourself.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: K1productions on November 16, 2010, 07:06:57 PM
Quote from: "Emotionless Vulcan"
I'm not trying to insult turtles, so don't get mad, but I don't really see the point of a lot of defences.  The way I see it, if you fleetsave people have no reason to attack and defences have no use, and they offer no bonus when you do an attack yourself.
Well, that depends.  Even if you fleet and resource save, the mines still produce resources while one is sleeping or away at work.  When one is high enough level, and doesn't build enough defenses to protect their planets, then their resources are open to raid (even more-so if they are using Solar Satellites, which also add to destroyed ships rank).
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Mr Crowley on January 31, 2011, 02:12:38 AM
I got a new way of looking at defence...right now in uni 1 im bored to tears, granted i can build up a wicked cool fleet but having a huge turtle while people wonder just what the hell im hiding on said turtle (not a darned thing) is funny...at least to me...*goes back into his corner*
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Canadainbeaver on August 27, 2013, 08:14:03 PM
Here is my planet in UNI2.   I have been attacked 3 times in the last year.

Planet Fenris ‎‎[5:496:6] has:

RESOURCES:
* ore: 12,628,290
* crystal: 9,878,844
* hydrogen: 1,699,492

CANADAINBEAVER'S SHIPS:
* Genesis Solar Satellite: 2
* Hermes Class Probe: 80
* Helios Class Solar Satellite: 500
* Atlas Class Cargo: 2,000

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 68,500
* Laser Cannon: 25,001
* Pulse Cannon: 3,150
* Particle Cannon: 3,150
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 70
* Decoy: 0
* Interplanetary Ballistic Missile: 3
* Gauss Cannon: 1,000
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 750

BUILDINGS:
* Shipyard: 18
* Capitol: 15
* Research Lab: 18
* Missile Silo: 9
* Factory: 3
* Ore Warehouse: 13
* Crystal Warehouse: 13
* Hydrogen Storage: 12
* Foundry: 7
* Resource Den: 0

MINES:
* Ore Mine: 36
* Crystal Mine: 33
* Hydrogen Synthesizer: 35

TECHS:
* Laser Tech: 14
* Armor Tech: 18
* Weapons Tech: 18
* Shield Tech: 18
* Particle Tech: 10
* Jet Drive: 17
* A.I. Tech: 16
* Energy Tech: 15
* Espionage Tech: 15
* Pulse Drive: 14
* Plasma Tech: 9
* FTL Tech: 9
* Expedition Tech: 8
* Warp Drive: 12
* Advanced Research Communication Network: 8

Attack | Espionage | Harvest


The chance of your probes being intercepted is 43%
Delete
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Admiral T-Wayne on September 07, 2013, 09:39:05 PM
Beave,

In the current reality, where M-Prom fleets routinely roam around, smashing NPCs with M+ missile launchers and laser cannons and 10K+ Plasma cannons (not to mention 100's of Zeuses and 10s of thousands of Proms), your defenses are like tissue paper.

However -- what can keep you from being attacked is making it so that the balance between the number of ships that are needed to penetrate your tissue paper and the profit that can be gained by penetrating such tissue paper is such that there is no reasonable profit.  If all the res you keep on your planet is about what you currently are showing, I'd think that people would pass you by. 

BTW, in looking at your setup -- SY18 and only F7?  The optimal mix comes when SY is about 6 -8 levels above Foundry.  If you can afford to do so, I suggest you invest in a few Foundry upgrades.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Vastet on September 12, 2013, 02:36:05 PM
Build a million Plasmas.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: yrx on February 21, 2014, 06:17:03 AM
Defenses are a very good idea.  You still need to fleet save.  You also should not let defense building get in the way of other things.

There is only one fool proof defense:  The Resource den.  Up to level 5, It protects more resources than it costs to build it.  It protects those resources from ever being stolen no matter what.  It also protects those resources from being seen, and it protects them from being calculated into plunder.  (When an attacker breaks through your ships and defenses, they take half of the resources available on the planet.  Since some of your resources are in the resource den, the den actually protects 150% of what it says it protects.)

Laggynate invented his classic 50-50-5-5-4-1 defense ratio based on the 1, 1.5, 2 converted ore ratio.  He also said his values were approximations, and were selected for their ability to cheaply protect against a wide variety of fairly sizeable, and varied attacking fleets.

15 ABM per level of defense is incorrect.  Since the ABM must be built in the missile silo, they cannot fit into this ratio properly.  ABM are important when you have few defenses. Building a Hephaestus is cheaper than upgrading a missile silo to level 11.

Speaking of the Heph, Laggynate came up with his ratio before the invention of the Heph... or Helios (Fodder defense) Ares Bombers, Thanatos, Curetes, Pallas, Zagreus, or Caramanor.

After Ares, most agreed that a better ratio was 60 missiles, 40 lasers, 12 pulse,  8 Particle, 7 Gauss, 1 Plasma.  (Based on Values,  Space mines would be about 5-25.  I'd aim low.)  It usually takes 50-100 Plasma to really deter an attack.

Some now suggest adding Curetes and Athenas as defense.  IF you do, Add their Debris value to resources for protection
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: kru on February 21, 2014, 06:26:03 AM
i have a good defence ratio:

Missile: x29,068,608,625,945
Laser: x20,000,000,000,000
Pulse: x1,000,100,301,000
Particle: x1,000,000,000,000
Anti-Ballistic: x200
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x100,000,000,000
Large Decoy: x1
Plasma: x10,000,000,000

and yes, that is on one planet, and yes those numbers are real
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Admiral T-Wayne on April 27, 2014, 09:08:33 PM
kru,

This is a thread in the strategy section.  I don't think that your post adds much knowledge or insight regarding defense unit strategies.  Your post belongs in the "I'm the biggest guy in all of SFC so I'm going to brag" thread :-)
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: kru on April 27, 2014, 11:19:46 PM
thanks for bringing back to life a thread which is over 2 months old.

those defences were almost over 2 months old.  If you don't understand defences, then no stratergy will help you.

The real stratergy to having defences is to have a very high weapons tech, higher than the above average shield tech.

In huigh numbers, missile batts & lasers will decimate fodder, pulse and particle will decimate cruisers, meaning that an attacker will have to significantly way up the hydro expenditure to send athena/ares/hades/proms or even risk sending zeus.

In unis where thanatos are common place, many people do not truely understand the benefit of very high pulse and/or particle.

In any case, a good defensive network only works well with high weapons tech....armour tech could be an idea as well to allow them to take a beating.

Also, each defensive unit only ever fires once per round, some ships will rapid fire.....but sure, if like me you have 100 trillion pulse & particle, that's 200 trillion extra shots at attackers in the first round alone..

There is nothing bragging.....but hey, if thats what you think, then you must think the person posting his uni2 defences is also bragging right?

moreover, the thread is entitled 'defence ratio' i simply stated i have a good defence ratio....you are more than welcome to battlecalc my defences and see the pain they bring
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: Admiral T-Wayne on April 28, 2014, 12:43:39 AM
kru,

'Fess up, you were bragging, when you posted your numbers (not your ratios) and said (paraphrasing) "and this is on just one planet".

The subsequent discussion that you provided **is** a good contribution to the strategic discussion of defense ratios.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: commander abаб on April 28, 2014, 02:03:10 AM
He posted all his defenses on a planet, you can determine the ratios from that. Making personal attacks on him is uncalled for!
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: censored on May 05, 2015, 12:27:40 PM
As people still refer to this thread, it really needs an update. The ratios that were established are in need of a slight tweaking with all the changes that have happened over the years.

First, missile batteries should be significantly reduced for any player who has newly joined a uni. The daily quest: turtle soup; encourages players to seek out and destroy missiles. Until you can put up a significant defence wall complete with tonnes of ABM's and plasmas, they are more likely to attract attention than to disuade attackers. I personally would recommend you have no more than half as many missiles as you have lasers. It wouldn't be a bad idea to ignore missiles altogether.

Plasmas are also much more important than they once were. I think having as many plasmas as gauss is not a bad idea. Uni's that have Thanatos in them make even plasmas look weak, but as the strongest defence and the ONLY defence that you can build en masse that never have rapid fire vulnerability, they are essential.
Title: Re: Defense Ratio
Post by: yrx on May 09, 2016, 05:45:21 AM
Currently, I've been fiddling with the ratio of
70 Missile batteries
100 Laser Cannons
10 Space mines
10 Pulse cannons
7 particle cannons
7 gauss guns
1 plasma cannon. 

(Repeated in large multiples, of course.)

I seem to experience fewer attacks than when I was using any variation of the laggynate solutions.  Also, my ore-crystal ratio seems more favorable than those variations.

I can agree with some of those who complained about Laggynate's numbers:

It IS better to have more laser cannons than missiles.  Poseidons rapid fire on missiles, and don't like lots of laser cannons.  This encoruages players to use bigger, slower fleets, which means I am more likely to get a heads-up before they cream me... and therefore I am better able to FRS, spend on defenses, ninja defense, or otherwise deter future attacks.

Also It IS better to have more pulse cannons than particle cannons.  Particle cannons are a huge drain in crystal, and while they hold up better in battle, they aren't as good a deterrent as the same amount of ore and crystal spent on plasma cannons or gauss cannons.

I do suspect my number of space mines is a bit high...  I have to do some noticeable rebuilding after all-hermes moon shots.  However, thanatos cannot rapid fire against them, few players bother keeping a lot of pallas at the ready in their fleets, and most other ships used for wiping out defenses don't do super-well against them either, so most attackers have tried to nuke them before they come down at me... which also tends to give me more of a head's-up before they land... and like most alliances, my mates are often ready to get behind retaliatory attacks against nuke-users.