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Author Topic: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs  (Read 3977 times)

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Offline CAPTAIN SKEENAN

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2014, 02:21:06 PM »
Here's the Espionage Report for my last hit.

Encounter Large Floating Colony ‎has:

RESOURCES:
* ore: 339,205,053
* crystal: 547,644,406
* hydrogen: 462,869,487

URCATH'S SHIPS:
* Artemis Class Fighter: 183,532
* Atlas Class Cargo: 29,145,050
* Apollo Class Fighter: 78,014
* Zagreus Class Recycler: 2
* Hercules Class Cargo: 4,164,483
* Poseidon Class Cruiser: 6,507,750

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 68,911,315
* Laser Cannon: 12,050,258
* Pulse Cannon: 1,171,095
* Particle Cannon: 1,973,751
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 427,802
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 453,607

TECHS:
* Armor Tech: 19
* Shield Tech: 19
* Weapons Tech: 19
Actualy I wish this was in uni 2 we'd be cleaning up

Offline CAPTAIN SKEENAN

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2014, 02:32:45 PM »
I agree I don't see many people from uni2 posting on the forum but I don't know of any collaboration. like the rest of the unis some people get crazy with changes or no changes at all, the only really profitable ones I remember are when they first started, but that didn't last long, then they always seem to go in cycles of profitability some cycles better than others.  the whole start of the thread was only the top two or three guys over the last year or so are the only ones able and except for a few random spawns were getting the most profitable and zero tech npc.

Offline napl

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2014, 04:04:33 PM »
Exactly what Skeenan said.  We were in a 2+ week cycle of profitable npc, certainly haven't been like that since their introduction here.  You all just assume that to be the case.  To us that's not broken...that was just what we were seeing (typical cycling).  You know, remember the standard refrain from Matt?  "NPC are function as designed". 

Bunch of BFG homers when you feel another uni has an advantage...but you all complain about them when its your issue you want to vent about.

kru

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2014, 04:13:52 PM »
Exactly what Skeenan said.  We were in a 2+ week cycle of profitable npc, certainly haven't been like that since their introduction here.  You all just assume that to be the case.  To us that's not broken...that was just what we were seeing (typical cycling).  You know, remember the standard refrain from Matt?  "NPC are function as designed". 

Bunch of BFG homers when you feel another uni has an advantage...but you all complain about them when its your issue you want to vent about.

No, most of the ones (including me) that make an open complaint to BFG do so with evidential proof.

Right now, the situation is that you were used to something that was broken in the first place.  However, you don't ask yourself 'well if that was broken and not working as intended, then what else is/was broken and not working as intended?'

Perhaps you didn't see it, or realise it that it was broken until it was fixed.  I mean why would you?  you play with your given right?  However, given the 6 bazillion threads that exist from all universes inciting some sort of issue in regards to NPCs, i myself (in my opinion anyway) find it strange that the only unverse not complaining was UNI2....well, now we know why.

At any point you guys could have stated that in uni2 there is only around the 10 - 20% of RSP associated to defences......that in comparison to the upwards of 60% in almost every other universe.


Offline napl

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2014, 04:27:11 PM »
so you are saying the NPC didn't cycle in other universes?  Did you all come on here and say, "no worries BFG, we are in a good cycle now"?  Maybe we've been more spoiled than other universes as our bad cycles maybe weren't as bad as other universes.  But again, most of us only play uni2, so we wouldn't know.  Where were you when Morat was providing all the evidence to BFG about the problems with NPC in all universes?  I participated in that thread.  And BFG did nothing to address them with all the evidence that was presented then.  Do you really think we believed that BFG would listen to the year long argument about 0 tech NPC only being available to the top 2-3 players in uni2?  Afterall, that's why kru and monkey are continuing to troll a thread in a uni they don't play.

kru

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2014, 04:47:53 PM »
so you are saying the NPC didn't cycle in other universes?  Did you all come on here and say, "no worries BFG, we are in a good cycle now"?  Maybe we've been more spoiled than other universes as our bad cycles maybe weren't as bad as other universes.  But again, most of us only play uni2, so we wouldn't know.  Where were you when Morat was providing all the evidence to BFG about the problems with NPC in all universes?  I participated in that thread.  And BFG did nothing to address them with all the evidence that was presented then.  Do you really think we believed that BFG would listen to the year long argument about 0 tech NPC only being available to the top 2-3 players in uni2?  Afterall, that's why kru and monkey are continuing to troll a thread in a uni they don't play.

No, i am not a troll, i am stupid for attempting to explain something so basic to you.  Perhaps if you had your account reset for exploiting a bug you would then understand.

Sure, npcs may cycle from good to bad to modertae to awful, however you stated this:

Actually, if you were playing uni2 you would know that before this "fix" the defenses were running about 10-20% RSP.  That is the crux of the post.  So by INCREASING the defense RSP to 40%, BFG drastically decreased the profitability.

Even prior to any fix, the defences spawning at that percentage was not working as the code should have dictated (thats what your not understanding)

10-20% defences based on the RSP was to low.  I have no idea why you think uni2 was the special universe and that 10-20% was the intended target, when all of the other universe's were displaying upto 7x that amount.

Even Matt stated

We will not be reverting this change. If you were seeing top end NPCs with 10% to 20% RSP assigned to defenses, then that was entirely too low in the first place and should have been corrected sooner.


Offline CreoleLakerFan

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2014, 05:31:15 PM »
Lowered profits I can deal with.  What I cannot deal with is increased hydrogen costs resulting in overall hydrogen losses.  Consider:

Code: [Select]
Encounter Large Floating Colony [redacted] has:
RESOURCES:
* ore: 668,869,957 
* crystal: 567,612,079 
* hydrogen: 434,594,555 
================================
Total plunder: 835,538,295 (6685 carm / 33422 herc / 167108 atlas)
DSP: 207,646,727.5 (5568468 Dios / 22273871 Zags)

URCATH'S SHIPS:
* Artemis Class Fighter: 1,829,779
* Atlas Class Cargo: 2,342,821
* Apollo Class Fighter: 795,852
* Zagreus Class Recycler: 5,825,616
* Hercules Class Cargo: 125,361
* Dionysus Class Recycler: 80,341
* Poseidon Class Cruiser: 66,763
* Carmanor Class Cargo: 202,818
* Athena Class Battleship: 139,717
* Ares Class Bomber: 46,213
* Hades Class Battleship: 26
* Prometheus Class Destroyer: 2,455,786
* Zeus Class: 810

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 87,929,233
* Laser Cannon: 14,469,138
* Pulse Cannon: 1,598,643
* Particle Cannon: 2,598,235
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 550,933
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 577,121

TECHS:
* Armor Tech: 19
* Weapons Tech: 19
* Shield Tech: 19

If I launch my entire fleet at that, this is what I end up with:

Code: [Select]
RSP 10,703,055k 26,545,046k -20,626,463k
If I were convert all of the O/C profit into fuel, I'd end up with 21,977,919, not to mention a trade cost of 10,000 credits.  That results in a net gain of zero fleet additions and 1.3B hydrogen - about 5% of what I need for a full launch.  I'd have to score 20 hits of that nature and spend 200,000 credits in trades to build up enough hydrogen buffer for 1-2 "misses" (UNI2 Top 10 is highly competitive), while my fleet remained static.  I am also paying for the Propulsion Mech and Battle Commander - without them these minuscule "profits" would be eliminated and I would be taking a loss.

Three weeks ago, my fleet could handle 3-4 concurrent hits in the 200-300M DSP range, and I was able to minimize my losses using fodder.  Not so with the current NPCs.  So not only is this not fun, it isn't sustainable.  In a few weeks, I am going to run out of resources to convert to hydrogen, and I am going to run out of credits to use to convert them.  The very simple end result is that if this NPC trend continues, I will no longer be playing this game.

I will now wait for the snappy comebacks from trolls who do not have accounts in UNI2, and Matt.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:45:33 PM by CreoleLakerFan »

kru

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2014, 06:02:32 PM »
1) i never argued that your profit was marginalised, or minimised, or even reduced.

2) you prove my exact point. Had you been operating the correct defensive ratio in the first place, you'd be laughing at the profits.

3) Thanks to moans about 0 tech npcs, AWS will be slightly fluctuated, try reducing that npc by 1 or maybe 2 levels........

4) why you so hating?????? at least you get dsp to add into your profit......those kinds of returns are pretty much standard in unis which offer no dsp on npcs....

That (i am guessing) is an npc that is equal or greater than your rsp????? which again, if you read what i posted in earlier threads will offer some explanation.
If it is showing as green to you, well IDK

i could offer some suggestions:

1 - Increase your hydro store to make conversion more cost effective.
2 - Try slowing your fleet to conserve fuel.
3 - perhaps find another, i am sure one example isn't really a good basis for your thesis

**

i am unsure how your profit is worked out, but if you only make 26 million profit on crystal with plunder and harvest then your doing something wrong..... you would plunder 280+million crystal alone (not to mention the debris field)

debris field is: 171,242,409k   106,838,856k   

so, if you make such a small profit, then as i said, this NPC is seriously red to you
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 06:07:20 PM by kru »

Offline Bah

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2014, 06:32:19 PM »
Ahh so no change in NPCs. And I see little movement amongst the top player's DSP scores in the last 36 hours.

I knew 4.5 months ago when I started my fifth account in this universe, this would be my last go around. I'll take a break for a week and see if anything changes.
Dr Zed
Uni2 only

Offline CreoleLakerFan

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2014, 08:32:15 PM »

i could offer some suggestions:

1 - Increase your hydro store to make conversion more cost effective.

This is a great idea.  My next hydrogen store upgrade requires 268B O/C.  Where do you propose I acquire the resources to upgrade it, given the stingy profits from the modified NPC spawns?

Quote
2 - Try slowing your fleet to conserve fuel.

You apparently missed the statement that the Top 10 for UNI2 is highly competitive.  Were I to reduce my fleet speed to conserve fuel, I would burn hydrogen with NO profit to show for it, because someone else would get there first.

Quote
3 - perhaps find another, i am sure one example isn't really a good basis for your thesis

I chose that one because it's a common example of the spanws we're dealing with in UNI2.

Quote
i am unsure how your profit is worked out, but if you only make 26 million profit on crystal with plunder and harvest then your doing something wrong..... you would plunder 280+million crystal alone (not to mention the debris field)

debris field is: 171,242,409k   106,838,856k   

so, if you make such a small profit, then as i said, this NPC is seriously red to you

Go back and read the post again, the profit line for crystal was 26,545,046k.  That means 26 Billion.

kru

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2014, 08:57:17 PM »
This is a great idea.  My next hydrogen store upgrade requires 268B O/C.  Where do you propose I acquire the resources to upgrade it, given the stingy profits from the modified NPC spawns?

ermmmm, save for it like everyone else has to seriously, you want that on a plate as well?

 


You apparently missed the statement that the Top 10 for UNI2 is highly competitive.  Were I to reduce my fleet speed to conserve fuel, I would burn hydrogen with NO profit to show for it, because someone else would get there first.

then stop moaning....you want to go 100% speed, then expect to pay for it

I chose that one because it's a common example of the spanws we're dealing with in UNI2.

sure, show us some 'common' examples of equal or lesser RSP valued npcs instead of greater ones

Go back and read the post again, the profit line for crystal was 26,545,046k.  That means 26 Billion.

yep, like i said, that is obviously a  RED rsp value npc to you.....if your loosing 160 BILLION ore and roughly 70 BILLION cyrtsal, then it is beyond your means (at this time)

Sure, i make a few mistakes on the initial math, but the logic is sound.  Your still execting to go around smacking higher value npcs like they were before bfg fixed the defence ratio, and cereatnly before Bah complained about 0 techs.

Things have changed (as pointed out in one of the post, it has drastically changed things) and therefore so do the players.

You can't just expect to continue onwards now as you were 48 hours ago......take a few hours to best ascertain which are the best ones for you to strike out at

Offline napl

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2014, 09:05:19 PM »
Here's 44 pages of reading pleasure for you kru.  From December 2012, before you started playing again I take it (so I'm sure its completely irrelevant).  That's where the complaints of the 0-tech npc started...

http://forum.playstarfleet.com/index.php?topic=18651.0

oh wait...I see you have posted in that thread...so you already know the player base has been complaining about 0 tech npc for only the highest ranking players for over a year.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 09:12:06 PM by napl »

Offline CreoleLakerFan

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2014, 09:20:47 PM »
Sure, i make a few mistakes on the initial math, but the logic is sound.  Your still execting to go around smacking higher value npcs like they were before bfg fixed the defence ratio, and cereatnly before Bah complained about 0 techs.

Things have changed (as pointed out in one of the post, it has drastically changed things) and therefore so do the players.

You can't just expect to continue onwards now as you were 48 hours ago......take a few hours to best ascertain which are the best ones for you to strike out at

Nothing about your logic is sound because you do not play in UNI2, so you have no idea what you are talking about.


Offline Matt H

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Re: NPCs largely unhittable except for top players' private zero techs
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2014, 09:25:24 PM »
I'm locking this thread because it's devolved into "You don't play in my thread, so you're ignorant" arguments.

The simple fact is, we've fixed 0 tech NPCs and we won't be reducing the amount of defenses on NPCs. If you were seeing lower amount previously, that was in error and we should have fixed it much sooner.
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