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Author Topic: Advanced Strategies  (Read 16588 times)

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Offline Aaria.moon

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 08:51:14 AM »
What's the flight sim?
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Offline sfman

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2010, 09:17:53 AM »
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
What's the flight sim?

It's an excel file which calculates flight times given techs, ships, source and destination.
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Offline Matt

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2010, 05:39:27 PM »
Quote from: "bryn987"
I edited the original post

I don't think I can move just a post from this thread over. Can you just paste the BB code into a separate thread? Then I can move that.
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2010, 07:32:50 PM »
My advice is going to assume that you play for over an hour a day and are intelligent enough to play aggressive without continually making big mistakes because while most players play defensive playing aggressive is the best way to gain ranks and resources.  Playing aggressive does not mean attacking players you will take big losses against, you should always know from battlecalc.com how much debris and resources you will gain versus what you will lose.  I've only been playing for 7 weeks and I'm rank 40 on destroyed ships so I actually have used and tested this stuff out.

Fleets and Fleet Ratios
Fleet ratios are a dumb concept because it overly generalizes what you’re supposed to build and it gives the implication that having a lot of everything is good.  Having said that I use a fleet ratio of about 100 artemis, 100 athena, 80 hades.  The goal is always to obtain the most resources while losing the least and to do that you will want the largest ships possible in order to receive 0-5% losses when attacking.  This makes Hades usually the best ship to build because Prometheus are too slow and hydro expensive.   A good player will actually manage his ships well enough that Athena and Prometheus will spend more over their lifetime in hydro than the hydro cost to build a Hades.  However when you build tons of Hades you will create a mass of ore that’s wasted if you don’t spend it so build Athena, batteries, trade.  Also many people don’t have the tech for Hades yet, in which case you want to build some 50 Poseidon or up to a 100 Athena to raid with as they will allow you to fleet smash and plunder with the smallest casualties.  You will need some fodder typically artemis once your producing Athena/Hades, however many people talk as though fodder is a requirement punishable by death, fodder usually increases your losses against the weaker opponents you should be targeting.

Fodder
You use fodder under 3 main circumstances, when you’re going to suffer decent losses(greater than  10%) so you just want to throw everything at them, when the enemy has lots of high damage ships/defenses which can take out your big ships in 1 or 2 hits, or because you want to limit the rapid fire on your big ships usually because your sending Athena and they have Hades.  You can play around with battlecalc to see if you should send fodder or how much.   ¾ of my attacks I do not send fodder,  I attack someone that’s much weaker say a 30 dino fleet hopefully composed of little Gauss/Athena or bigger ships and 3 tech levels below me and then I send as many Hades as I can or need to and then fill in the rest with Athena to the point at which I carry everything back or have enough to smash them without taking a single loss.

Defense and Defense Ratios
Defenses are pretty bad, I only use 15 batteries on each planet.  Oddly enough I’ve still been hit with 20 nukes.  Fleet/resource saving is much better however if you’re too lazy, don’t think you need to, or want to protect small resources of a colony or homeworld overnight batteries make great fodder and are the best for an opponent who is taking heavy >20% losses unless you’re in the stage where Poseidon’s are common in which case you want laser cannons.  If the person attacking you has overpowered you completely and is going to take <5% losses the best defense would be gauss or plasma because those guns concentrated firepower are scary to someone powerful who is smart enough to send only a big ship fleet and use battlecalc to find out they will lose several Poseidon/Athena/Hades.  You should spend about as much resources on batteries/cannons as you do on gauss/plasma.

Techs
If you often attack and get away with <5% losses you should do hull then weapon then shield but if you often lose more ships being attacked or don’t usually get away with <5% losses you should do weapon then hull then shield and either way you should keep them the same level with shield possibly 1 level lower.  Most people do not have high enough techs.  The point at which you should upgrade is when (TotalResourceCostOfUpgrade/TotalResourceCostOfShipsAndDefences ) is smaller than (1-(1+.1*CurrentTechLevel)/(1+.1*(CurrentTechLevel+1)))*.4.  I know right that formula is some scary shit but it is the percentage of cost vs benefit and both will be less than 9% you just have to compare them.

Mines and Hydro End Game
In order for a high lvl 20 mine to pay for itself plus its energy cost it takes over a month.  A dionysis on the other hand can pay for itself in just a few hours.  I can make resources a lot faster by using a massive fleet of ships and dinos but hydro becomes a huge problem.  Once you have 500 big ships it’s easy to make lots of points and millions of ore and crystal fleet smashing and difficult to afford the hydro because dino’s don’t collect it and moving huge fleets costs a lot.

Catching Opponents
You should never attack or even scan someone when they are awake unless you know what your doing.  During the night the chances to land attacks are way higher, it's especially high if I take a look at a prime target every few hours for a couple days until I can tell when he goes to bed.

Moving Fleet Colonization
Putting a bunch of colonies right by your homeworld might be nice for protection and transportation but it puts a big ass target on yourself for other players, lets them find out easily when your sleeping, and limits how many people you can farm.  After a month protecting small amounts of resources and ships that get built doesn't matter much, it will become increasingly more difficult to find people to farm, and protecting your fleet becomes priority number 1.  In order to maximize farm while minimizing hydro usage it would be extremely good to place 3 colonies in your homeworld galaxy 100 apart and then 5 in an adjacent galaxy at 50, 150, 250, 350, 450.   You can then move your fleet and resources around in a circle overnight farming the people in that area for a few days and then moving on to the next area,  if your farms become too small for the size of your fleet you can break it up into 2 forces or 3 forces while circling around.  Using shipyards on your colonies are much cheaper than making 1 high level shipyard, upgrading a foundry, and continually transporting resources to it anyway.  Build hydro efficient ships, moving around a lot makes it way easier to farm and protect yourself but costs a lot of hydro.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 04:06:00 PM by EvilPenguin »

Offline bryn987

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2010, 07:36:33 PM »
Quote from: "Matt"
Quote from: "bryn987"
I edited the original post

I don't think I can move just a post from this thread over. Can you just paste the BB code into a separate thread? Then I can move that.

Created a Dear Matt post  :lol:  :lol:

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Offline Cloak72

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2010, 02:32:19 AM »
Quote from: "Matt"
Quote from: "bryn987"
I edited the original post

I don't think I can move just a post from this thread over. Can you just paste the BB code into a separate thread? Then I can move that.
You should be able to split a post.
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Offline saryne

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2010, 06:25:54 PM »
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
Having said that I use a fleet ratio of about 100 artemis, 100 athena, 80 hades.  Many people talk as though fodder is a requirement punishable by death, fodder usually increases your losses against the weaker opponents you should be targeting.

Fodder is useful for large minor defenses and a few heavy guns. Otherwise just send bigger ships. As to colonies 100 systems only? If they get around to introducing phalanx then you'll want at least 200 systems between planets. Add in fleet saving and progressively faster ships you'll be happy you have 200 systems so you can sleep :) As to your ratio of ships I think that's a personal choice on how you want to raid. If you're going after turtles then the Artemis count needs to be upped significantly. If you're going for big guns and minor small defenses then you want fire power.
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2010, 06:32:01 AM »
Quote from: "saryne"
Fodder is useful for large minor defenses and a few heavy guns.

No, it's the complete opposite.  Imagine if they only have 500 batteries you can just send 200 athena and take no loss.  If they have only 20 plasma cannons or proms you want to send 1500 artemis rather than 200 athena to take much smaller losses.
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Offline Aaria.moon

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2010, 08:52:26 AM »
blaah
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Offline saryne

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2010, 10:01:30 AM »
No, that's right. 500 missiles isn't large it's small. 4000 would be medium, 15k would be large. If you have enough artemis to take that out you're a long way into the game. However 15k missiles and 10 plasma can do a lot of damage, so lots of artemis, dozens of cruisers and some big boys would be needed to get through while taking minimal (or quickly rebuildable) ships.
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Offline Dampaq.Pale.Horseman

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2010, 11:22:05 AM »
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
Fleets and Fleet Ratios
Fleet ratios are a dumb concept because it overly generalizes what you’re supposed to build and it gives the implication that having a lot of everything is good.  Having said that I use a fleet ratio of about 100 artemis, 100 athena, 80 hades.  

You have a very unbalanced fleet...

It is better to have a balanced fleet, where you are able to take advantage in any given situation..
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2010, 08:46:58 PM »
Adding more batteries is the same thing with larger proportions.  I can prove it with the simulator do 1000 athena vs 4000 batteries 5 plasma attacker techs 12 defender techs 10.  You take less than 1.5mil losses but if you send 4000 artemis 730 athena you take over 8.5mil in losses, 6 times as much.

Balanced fleets are not better, partly because some ships will slow you down and speed is paramount, partly because you cannot often find tasks where you need a bunch of medium size ships because the enemy only built 500 atlas or 500 artemis, and mainly because small/medium ships increase your losses against opponents which you overpower greatly.  If I put every resource into building hades I can attack a lot of smaller targets with no losses, if you build a balanced fleet you will continue to lose small ships until later you will have a much weaker fleet.  Balanced fleets remind me of the even worse idea of taking your fleet and separating it between all of your colonies to balance out your power and protect yourself against weaker opponents.
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Offline Dampaq.Pale.Horseman

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2010, 11:00:00 PM »
You have missed the point.

What I mean by a balanced fleet, is your entire inventory.

You have x amount of each type of ship, the ratios of which, you can workout for yourself.

If you only need to send in a few Artemis for a job then you use that, but if you have a target has a large defence plus a sizeable fleet sitting on it then you will need to use, a good mix of ships in the attack, Destroyers for packing a big punch, bombers for taking out fodder defence, battleships for a secondary punch, battlecruisers for High level fodder killing including battleships, cruisers for fodder killing and as fodder, and both types of fighter fodder in high numbers for killing high level defence and chaffe for your big ships.

If you don't develop a fleet that can be used in a variety roles, then you are doomed to be only chasing neiche targets.
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Offline Xight

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2010, 11:04:43 PM »
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
Adding more batteries is the same thing with larger proportions.  I can prove it with the simulator do 1000 athena vs 4000 batteries 5 plasma attacker techs 12 defender techs 10.  You take less than 1.5mil losses but if you send 4000 artemis 730 athena you take over 8.5mil in losses, 6 times as much.

Balanced fleets are not better, partly because some ships will slow you down and speed is paramount, partly because you cannot often find tasks where you need a bunch of medium size ships because the enemy only built 500 atlas or 500 artemis, and mainly because small/medium ships increase your losses against opponents which you overpower greatly.  If I put every resource into building hades I can attack a lot of smaller targets with no losses, if you build a balanced fleet you will continue to lose small ships until later you will have a much weaker fleet.  Balanced fleets remind me of the even worse idea of taking your fleet and separating it between all of your colonies to balance out your power and protect yourself against weaker opponents.

Against 4000 missile Send ares/poseidons.  Even an Poseidon/athena count of 500 pos/500 athena will be only 500k in losses.  I'm pretty sure someone who builds a balanced fleet will be able to take advantage of someone stacking defense like that pretty easily.  

Against your fleet if I were to spend the same amount of res all the time, I would always take half your losses.  

Just because you have a balanced fleet doesn't mean that you send everything to everyone.  It means you have available to you ships in good rations to attack someone with the least amount of losses to you.  It also means that you can take out someone who's equal or stronger than you if they were dumb enough to just stack a few ship types.  

Only downside to a balanced fleet is the sheer time it takes to build up the fodder ships.
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2010, 12:22:12 AM »
The question was never what to send against 4000 batteries it was just an example to prove big ships without fodder suffer lower losses against fodder when they overpower it.  Someone who builds a balanced fleet will not take this out easier, they will have a bunch of artemis and apollo that will increase losses, slow ares and proms they will slow the attack and so usually are bad to send, so it will be harder for them than for someone who built mass athena/hades.

Obviously against a big ship fleet a fleet that has more fodder would take less losses but you don't fight people who are your own size regardless of big ship or fodder fleet because taking massive losses is extremely bad.

Of course your not sending everything to everyone that would be even dumber than building a little bit of everything.  Against the people you are attacking your typically as weak as your weakest ship, as slow as your slowest ship they determine whether u get there fast or take almost no losses.  Having 50 of every ship does not beat having 200 hades sending them in against a fleet dropping 30 dinos and not taking a single loss because the attack was fast and big.  I could prove this by going from rank 34 destroyed ships to rank 1 but I don't have the time to play this game that much.
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