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November 22, 2017, 03:25:27 AM

Author Topic: Advanced Strategies  (Read 16587 times)

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Offline Aaria.moon

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2010, 12:37:14 AM »
Sending strong ships against weak defenses (missiles/lasers) will result in less losses. The same goes for sending weak ships against strong defenses (gauss/plasma).

Now how's about making a thread for this of its own, or rather make a guide on the subject and quit bantering over who is slightly more obtuse to writing errors.
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2010, 06:56:16 AM »
You are more doomed to niche targets with a balanced fleet, there is nothing a 200 hades fleet cannot attack that a balanced fleet of everything with the same resources can while maintaining low losses.  However there are a lot of large targets in which you will lose more resources attacking with some combination of your balanced fleet.

You may have a lot of experience horseman from the battle from the other game but that doesn't mean you know more of what your doing, the skill component is all math simulation.  In the report of thousands of ships you sent me you greatly overpowered your enemy and you would have taken much smaller losses had you only sent large ships.  I can prove it in the simulator while reducing the amounts by a factor of 10.

http://www.battlecalc.com/?runsimulatio ... m=Simulate

Now you lose about 7.5million resources but if we take the art, apollo, poseidon and convert them to hades with a 2.5 ore to hydro ratio and 1.5 ore to crystal ratio you end up with 85 extra hades and no art/apollo/pos and when you rerun the simulation you only lose 3million resources.

Here's a challenge, try to find a case where this doesn't happen since this is the norm.  Make a moderate fleet/defense, then pick a balanced fleet to attack it where you lose less than 10% of your resources, then convert the resources of the small ships into large ships and watch as the amount of resources you lose goes down.  battlecalc.com even overestimates slightly how many large ships you lose due a simulation flaw.
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Offline Dampaq.Pale.Horseman

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2010, 08:31:04 AM »
Your data is flawed you used Weapons techs 15 for the attacker, and only 10 for the defender.

In those reports I sent you we were evenly matched in techs.

Try putting in the full data from those battles, and see what Battlecalc does..!

There is a massive difference between 1.5 K of fodder and 15K of fodder.
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2010, 09:23:12 PM »
The data is as accurate as I can make it and it isn't some odd ball fight, I've done hundreds of these and usually the no fodder all big ships work best.  The techs I picked gave similar losses to your real losses, if the actual techs were the same than in this game you would have experienced much more losses than you did, so there could be large differences between other game and this game.  If your techs were really the same then apparently in this game it is MUCH easier to greatly overpower your enemy and take less losses which makes big ships a lot better and that difference can be corrected in a simulation by using different techs like I did.

There is not a significant difference in the amount it's the ratios that matter 4000 artemis vs 10 of every ship and 400 artemis vs 1 of every ship will give the same results divided by 10, rather than saying there is a difference you can just run the simulations for yourself and watch as you get the same numbers.
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Offline Dampaq.Pale.Horseman

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2010, 10:25:48 PM »
You cannot put 4000 artemis into battlecalc..

And no i'm not trying to, make this into a mud fight..

I read a post earlier that explains it probably better, than I could.

Quote from: "origon"
Take the hades ship as an example

If I send 2 athenas, they will most likely get demolished due to the 85.7% of the hades to fire again any time it hits an athena

If I send 98 artemis with the 2 athenas against the hades, there's a 98% chance that the hades will target an artemis (98 in 100 chance). Since the hades has no rapid fire against the artemis, it will not fire again letting your bigger ships (athenas in this case) live longer to take it down

If you increase the numbers, there is a higher chance of success, those figures I gave you, I simmed at the time with just Destroyers Battlecruisers Battleships and bombers with out fodder, the only profitable solution was what I used.

When it comes to fodder, the effectiveness is not linear in scale but curved to the point where it is near vertical, when you are dealing in 10's of thousands, and conversly to get the same results with bigger ships, becomes more cost prohibitive. 1000 Artemis cost 3KK ore 1KK crystal, where 100 Athena cost 4.5KK ore and 1.5KK Crystal.

But when you use fodder at low levels.  It is just becomes DF.

The other advantage to High volume fodder, is deterance, I don't know how closely you looked at that 1000 destroyer hit.  That fleet would have demolished my fleet with very little loss, He built a very good fleet, very well balanced. It would have severley maulled either of the other 2 fleets on a one to one, and he only built three types of ship.

And lastly the combat, is exactly the same inthat game as SFC with a few ship changes namely the Apollo, and the charon.
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Offline Aaria.moon

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2010, 02:46:50 AM »
I got a hold of the gnome, he changed that dampaq. You can run a sim with 4000 artemis if you want to. now.
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2010, 04:52:16 AM »
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
I simmed at the time with just Destroyers Battlecruisers Battleships and bombers with out fodder, the only profitable solution was what I used.

When it comes to fodder, the effectiveness is not linear in scale but curved to the point where it is near vertical

That's because you already built fodder, once you've built a mass of fodder and don't have enough big ships you cannot send big ship only fleets because you don't greatly overpower them with it.

The effectiveness of fodder is not perfectly linear and I believe it's curve will be in the direction of fodder being better but that curve is so small.  I cannot even detect a curve by looking at the difference between simulations with 10's, 100's and 1000's of fodder.   If Locien let me use higher numbers or if I could use Laggynate's alliance one I could prove if fodder in that battle or a typical battle is worth it for much larger battles but 99% of players right now are not going to have 10k fodder ships.
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Offline Dampaq.Pale.Horseman

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2010, 05:11:16 AM »
True,

But in the next few weeks or so you will start seeing super fleeting.

I just hope that those that do get to that stage, don't become lazy and start turning weaker players into farms, and go for large fleet hunting instead.
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Offline Xight

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2010, 07:01:49 AM »
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
You are more doomed to niche targets with a balanced fleet, there is nothing a 200 hades fleet cannot attack that a balanced fleet of everything with the same resources can while maintaining low losses.  However there are a lot of large targets in which you will lose more resources attacking with some combination of your balanced fleet.

You may have a lot of experience horseman from the battle from the other game but that doesn't mean you know more of what your doing, the skill component is all math simulation.  In the report of thousands of ships you sent me you greatly overpowered your enemy and you would have taken much smaller losses had you only sent large ships.  I can prove it in the simulator while reducing the amounts by a factor of 10.

http://www.battlecalc.com/?runsimulatio ... m=Simulate

Now you lose about 7.5million resources but if we take the art, apollo, poseidon and convert them to hades with a 2.5 ore to hydro ratio and 1.5 ore to crystal ratio you end up with 85 extra hades and no art/apollo/pos and when you rerun the simulation you only lose 3million resources.

Here's a challenge, try to find a case where this doesn't happen since this is the norm.  Make a moderate fleet/defense, then pick a balanced fleet to attack it where you lose less than 10% of your resources, then convert the resources of the small ships into large ships and watch as the amount of resources you lose goes down.  battlecalc.com even overestimates slightly how many large ships you lose due a simulation flaw.

Your example makes no sense.  Why would someone send soo much artemis on someone who has soo much missile defenses.  A person who makes a balanced fleet will probably have proms = ares ratio.  Why aren't you using them in this battle sim?  You can even KEEP the fodder into the sim, and still take less losses than your large ship attack, by just adding those ares.

My argument for using ares with your simulation techs:
Shield tech 15 (9.6 mill crystal? lol) by itself is more than enough resources to build warp 9, which means you can throw them into the sim as well without worrying too much about attack speed.  Your already using prometheus which are slow anyways.  Even without the Warp 9 within the same system an attack with Ares only takes 10 extra minutes.

Just take out the artemis, and apollo, and add 26 ares to your simulation, and you take less than 1 million in resources of loss.  You still have a ton of left over resources after that for fodder ships.  Also a balanced fleet isn't just for you.  You're able to help out more in group attacks by contributing a diversified amount of ships to tweak your calculations.  Like we mentioned, just cause you have a balanced fleet doesn't mean you have to use it.  And in the example that you gave, a person with a balanced fleet gets more for their resources back.
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Offline babam

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2010, 07:56:53 AM »
reverse ninja

you figure out the return time of the attacking fleet and arrive 2 seconds after they get back, leaving no chance for them to fleetsave.

the funny thing is for the whole return trip, all they can do is watch their fleet return to certain destruction.
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Offline Aaria.moon

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2010, 08:45:53 AM »
I wanna hear more on how to calc that babam!

I'm still lost on the subject.
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Offline EvilPenguin

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2010, 08:52:14 PM »
You don't understand the discussion xight, ur post is 90% irrelevant.  You would need to know a lot of stuff to reverse ninja.  Techs, the speed at which he sent ships(which u can only guess), he would have to actually hit the target and not recall, and if you were off by more than 1.5 seconds u would either miss or he would dodge and you would lose hydro, it would be pretty pro to land this though.  I thought about doing it a while ago but there's so many what if's I figured it might not be worth my time and that I might just end up discovering like I did in Evony that the time movement system isn't calculated correctly.
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Offline Laggynate

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2010, 09:20:28 PM »
Quote from: "babam"
reverse ninja

you figure out the return time of the attacking fleet and arrive 2 seconds after they get back, leaving no chance for them to fleetsave.

the funny thing is for the whole return trip, all they can do is watch their fleet return to certain destruction.
Or set up a group defend?
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Offline Dampaq.Pale.Horseman

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2010, 09:25:31 PM »
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "babam"
reverse ninja

you figure out the return time of the attacking fleet and arrive 2 seconds after they get back, leaving no chance for them to fleetsave.

the funny thing is for the whole return trip, all they can do is watch their fleet return to certain destruction.
Or set up a group defend?

Yes I Definatly, would not recommend, doing this unless your victim was in the same system as you, if your opponent Knows you can pull it off, the chances are you'll be setup for it....
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Offline Aaria.moon

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Re: Advanced Strategies
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2010, 09:27:48 PM »
Now that would be damned funny to see. I aborted an attack and said I had the wrong time because I expected a bloodbath.
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