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December 18, 2017, 04:38:38 PM

Author Topic: Defense Ratio  (Read 17398 times)

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Vastet

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2010, 01:07:38 AM »
If we have the ships to spare, the Valkethian Federation will attack any defence we can overwhelm as long as the ship points gained + resources aquired - other targets available = or > ships lost + hydro spent + time consumed on attack.

= because once the defence has been smashed we can clean up on the second wave.  We may even make a hit that will destroy us utterly in order to weaken the defences, but you'd have to have one hell of a sweet mining operation and stacked resources to drag us into that kind of conflict.

With the sole exception of vengeance strikes. We have a target in each universe who fired one or multiple IPBM's at our colony(s) without even a follow up attack, not that there was anything there worth attacking, or that the defences were so massive that it was causing an itch in the attacker. In the normal galaxy, our attacker is getting a break. We've advanced so fast in extreme that we don't have time to properly look after our lesser equipment in the original, so we entered d mode for now. He's still on our target list though, and the IPBM's are stacking up on two planets within range of him well enough regardless of tax. One day we'll leave d mode, nuke his entire collection of colonies, and then go back into d mode. It will be a fun day.

The extreme target isn't half so lucky. He took out a puny 2 pulse, 2 particle, 10 missile, 10 laser, and 1 small decoy. In the span of a day we've colonised a planet in a system within range of 5 of his well defended colonies, and missile silo level 4 is under construction right now. It will complete as we sleep. When we wake up in the morning, our fleet save with enough res to build 20 missiles will return. Our second fleet will deploy and get there in time to build a second set of 20 missiles by the time the first has finished construction. Our third fleet, which may or may not be necessary, will be right behind that bringing another 20 missiles worth of resources. And then our fourth fleet will make absolultely sure there's nothing left of him.

I will much enjoy his cries of desperation as his massive turtle shell cracks apart in fire. Next time he will choose more carefully who he launches unprovoked missile strikes at. It will be worth the 10 odd million resources we've already committed to this operation, even if we don't get a single ore sample from it.

Supreme Commander Vastet
The Valkethian Federation
Aros 2
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Offline poeticmotion

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2010, 01:18:57 AM »
Or you could have taken those 10 mil in resources and had a nice moonshot...
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Vastet

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2010, 01:57:46 AM »
No. The moon would have been in a different galaxy, if I'd even gotten one. Revenge is worth infinitely more. I'll let my fleetsave screwups (if I ever have one) provide me a moon shot. Or I'll get Oracled. I doubt very much I'll throw things around for fun in the blind hope that I'll get lucky. This way I KNOW I'm causing pain, and lots of it. It is much more enjoyable.

Supreme Commander Vastet
The Valkethian Federation
Aros 2, Missile Silo
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Offline Killigan

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2010, 05:50:19 AM »
Thanks for the answers, that is a big help, esp. Azzaron and Ekij.  It looks like I'm on the right track, but have a bit more to go before coming out of D mode.

Btw, remind not to attack Vastet.  >.<
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Offline Killigan

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2010, 05:53:04 AM »
Quote from: "azzaron"
I should also point out that Erij listed Plasmas twice; he meant Pulse the first time he listed it. But it's fun to point out his error   :P

lol, you mean he meant 'particle' and it would have been fun to point out if you din't make a similar error?  :P :P
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Offline texasman77

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2010, 06:21:45 AM »
Quote from: "azzaron"
What Erij says is right. However, I would still come after 1M resources with the D he provided - it has almost no fodder. To make me think twice about it, I would have to see something like this:

500 Missile
500 Laser
50 Pulse
50 Particle
40 Gauss
10 Plasma

Plus both decoys and obviously enough ABMs to protect it.

I should also point out that Erij listed Plasmas twice; he meant Pulse the first time he listed it. But it's fun to point out his error   :P


Sorry.. that defense is not what will make someone think twice on 1M resources..  

There is ONE key item and one deficit..

Key Item.. # of ABM's..  

20 ABM's = 500K

10 Plasma will take out big ships unless you send fodder but no ABM's then easy to take out..

If the player only has 20 ABM's and 10 PLASMA and I can see a possible profit.. 30 NUKES later and the rest of the D wont put a dent in my Athenas or Hades if they are lower tech then 11.  It will take three runs but hey.. no problem.. It will become a mining colony then.. :) :)

The key is overkill and keeping the battle to 3 rounds or less..  

So.. in conclusion.. If you are going to keep resources on a planet.. and your going to build "D".. You need ABM's..   Leave too much.. and it will be gone the next day regardless of what you put on that planet..  

Oh.. if you leave ships.. then the equations really go out the window.. I have seen planets that I didn't care if I broke through or not.. I just wanted the ship kill points and debri..

Fleet Save or Loose them.. Resource Save.. or risk loosing them..  

Honestly.. Mission time vs. return limits me more than any defense..  If I can't send 20 Atlas at least within an 1:10.. then I probably won't go after it unless I am bored.. LOL
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Offline Ekij

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2010, 02:05:53 PM »
Quote
and obviously enough ABMs to protect it.

Apparently not obvious enough :(

Quote from: "azzaron"
I should also point out that Erij [Ekij] listed Plasmas twice; he meant Pulse the first time he listed it. But it's fun to point out his error.
Actually I meant Particle, so if we're having fun pointing out errors  ... ;)
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Vastet

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2010, 04:16:57 PM »
Quote from: "Killigan"
Thanks for the answers, that is a big help, esp. Azzaron and Ekij.  It looks like I'm on the right track, but have a bit more to go before coming out of D mode.

Btw, remind not to attack Vastet.  >.<

Attacking my planets isn't any more dangerous than attacking anyones planets. Less actually, since I don't get all pissy when my ships blow up (or at least I won't if it ever happens) and my resources get raided.
However, attacking with missiles for the sole purpose of watching my defences crumble is very dangerous. I take it as an insult. My people demand retribution. They will have it.  :twisted:

Supreme Commander Vastet
The Valkethian Federation
Aros 2
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Offline vanvely

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2010, 03:04:20 AM »
Quote from: "Laggynate"
50 Missile
50 Laser
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
10-15 ABM
No missile battery?
Also, I'm assuming that this is a ratio, EXCEPT for the ABM part, right? Then again, the ABM number does have to scale up with the rest of the defenses, just not linearly. What does your simulation suggest for ABM count? Just 10-15 always?
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Offline azzaron

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2010, 05:04:38 PM »
Quote from: "vanvely"
No missile battery?
It's the first thing listed, dude...  :?

You basically want as many ABMs as you can possibly get. Once you get the second plasma, you definitely want to try to have 30 by then....
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Offline vanvely

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2010, 02:08:45 AM »
Wow, I must have been drunk...
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Offline Laggynate

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2010, 05:39:54 AM »
Quote from: "vanvely"
Wow, I must have been drunk...
Or temporarily blinded. Those are my two guesses ;)
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Offline Victor Doom

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2010, 06:00:06 AM »
:twisted: I would have to say the Large Decoy would intimidate me the most in that defense...  :twisted:
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Offline migs

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2010, 02:30:06 AM »
Defense is one of the most under-appreciated elements of the game.  Combined with FLEETSAVING, you will be nearly invincible.  Although there are multiple ways to war, several of our members have found an effective balance to defensively deter most enemies even while skipping a fleetsave from time to time.

I will start with what I believe every player’s target goal should be for their homeworld’s defenses.  According to BattleCalc and several top 200 players, you will not be attacked with these defenses unless someone hates you—and even then it would take time to wear your defenses down as no one is likely to take you head on unless they have a death wish. The END GOAL may be daunting to the newest player and even some veteran players, but seeing the finish line is nearly as effective as the most simplified explanations.

END GOAL (as of 4/10/10):
2,000 x Missiles
1,000 x Lasers
300 x Pulse
300 x Particle
1 x Decoy
60 x ABM
200 x Gauss
1 x Large Decoy
100 x Plasma

PROS:
1) Deterrence – This combination of defenses would ravage 99% of the fleets in the game. Whoever decides to attack you would likely lose more in the long run then what you have at your base.  In addition, your defenses have a 70% chance of being rebuilt.  His fleet does not.
2) Fleetsaving – Most top 200 players interviewed would not attack this defense even if your ships were at your home base.  This allows you more flexibility with raiding if you are in a position to log on at random times of the day and don’t want to be limited by a returning fleet. Ask yourself what type of player you are before investing in a defensive shell.

CONS:
1) Resources, time, smaller fleet.

PATH TO SUCCESS:
1) Defenses are easily destroyed by ICBMs. Build 30 ABMs before you seriously begin working on your defense.
2) Unlock and build 20 plasmas.
*With 40 ABMs and 20 plasmas, you will effectively deter/frustrate most players, especially in combination with FLEETSAVE.
3) Build Missiles/Lasers/Pulse/Particles/Gauss at your own pace with the END GOAL in mind.
4) Build 10 or more ABMs and 10-20 more Plasmas as you begin to develop your Athena/Hades/Prom fleet.
5) Halfway to the end goal (see above), you will effectively deter even top 1000 players.
*At this point, some players have found fleetsaving during the day to be inconsequential, especially if they like to log on at random times through the day for a quick raid.  The losses to most fleets are just too high, especially if a good-sized fleet of Athenas/Hades/Proms will be waiting behind the defenses.  ALWAYS fleetsave at night.
6) Continue to the END GOAL at your own pace and based on your perceived threats. You will undoubtedly gain an advantage through deterrence as you scale your desired fleet size with the END GOAL for your defenses in mind.

SCENARIOS:
To emphasize the value of this defensive strategy in numbers through BattleCalc:

An attacker with 333/333/333 Athenas/Hades/Proms would lose 191/153/88 ships.
Losses: 18465000 Ore, 13385000 Crystal, 3615000 Hydrogen.

500/250/250 Athenas/Hades/Proms would result in a draw and losses of 311/125/68  ships.
Losses: 21825000 Ore, 13065000 Crystal, 2895000 Hydrogen.

--------------------------

There are always “what if” scenarios involving multiple members of an alliance attacking your homeworld with 200 ICBMs at once or a high ranked player attacking regardless of any losses he would sustain.  This is why FLEETSAVING is your #1 defense.  However, for typical and predictable game play, you should be safe from most attackers.



...I am building the above post for my alliance. Scanning the board I'm curious to hear if anyone would disagree or would like to input.  Thanks!
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Offline Aaria.moon

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Re: Defense Ratio
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2010, 05:54:44 AM »
For the same value as what you listed above you could build

Particle Cannon: 632

Gauss Cannon: 146

Plasma Cannon: 35

Decoy: 1

Missile Battery: 3479

Laser Cannon: 3092

Pulse Cannon: 773

Large Decoy: 1

This does twice as much damage to an attacking fleet vs using the exaggerated gauss and plasma numbers.

233 nukes to obliterate your listed defenses, 276 to take out my equal value defenses :)
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