Starfleet Commander Forum

Starfleet Commander => Extreme Universe 2 => Topic started by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 07:27:34 PM

Title: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 07:27:34 PM
Its a very sad day to be KBF......I just received a message from a player who will remain unnamed and it straight disgusted me to read what I just did!

Boris Alden you should be ashamed of yourself! With a lvl 55 hydro storage you get just over 20 quad hydro per 5,000 credits and yet you turn around and offer your/some alliance members a rate of 1 (ONE) quad per 9,000 credits, albeit that is for straight hydro so no O or C needed to trade, but really? Come on!!!
Stop being a thief!!! If I can do those rates with my lvl 51 storage, which I can, you need to stop screwing people over just so you can play for free. You certainly are as dirty as they come!

Fricken sad if you ask me, you should be straight embarrassed right now!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: jt_trouble on February 17, 2015, 07:58:04 PM
I think I'll make some popcorn, this thread should be epic in no time

:P
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 08:06:23 PM
lol says a lot when Borholio comes in to read it and doesnt reply to it ;)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: krysst on February 17, 2015, 08:33:46 PM
Krysst pulls up a chair beside JT and pulls the icebox closer :d
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 08:51:27 PM
Well well I don't want to bad mouth anybody because obviously Saleen is right in his own mind.

He also offers this package.

If you are sick of getting sad rates merching hydro I am able to offer you 2.5 quadrillion hydro per 5,000 credits, please remember you must provide either ore or crystal on trade for it as well.

Also until supplies last I am able to provide you with the following packages of OCH:

1. Resources to build 3 Billion zeus - 40,000 credits

For each zeus package you will receive
15Q Ore
12Q Crystal
3Q Hydro


2. Resources to build 1 Trillion dios - 25,000 credits

For each dio package you will receive
10Q Ore
6Q Crystal
2Q Hydro


Please send in tickets to Support before noon Friday 02/20/15 and message me with the confirmation they give you when its completed! Thanks!

Regards,
Saleen


Now his information is out dated and should anyone want resources due to Theo and I smashing targets with Athena now offer more favourable rates than offer or implied in this message.

So if anyone is interested they should message us instead of being swayed by rumours and conjecture.

After all facts are facts......
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 08:57:33 PM
That sure is what I offer and its based off what I get with my storage, also if you want straight hydro no O/C needed for trade I can do 1Q for 5,000 credits so tell me how thats worse than your thievery by giving 1Q for 9,000 credits yeah thats what I thought.


When I was messaged with the above info about your rates that was current, that info was given to me today! So you are right, facts are facts and you only now claim higher rates because I posted showing how you are being a thief!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Theo on February 17, 2015, 08:58:22 PM
yeap guys can i have some of that popcorn.

Outdated rates by a long shot and with regards to the obvious bad taste of the original wording you should hold your head in shame and sit in the corner with a big hat with the letter D on :)



 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 09:03:32 PM
and you theo you do the same shit Borholio does, give outdated rates to people even when you already completed the next level of storage. Now I do give you this theo, your rates were always better than Borholios, but when you started to be like your big brother by not telling people when you upgraded and such and still gave them the old rate you too became just like Boris... a thief so why dont you two go sit in the corner with a hat that has a Big T on it.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:04:21 PM
Lets deal with the facts I do not offer hydro at a rate you continue to slander as.

As I say your info is out dated by that I mean.

ARE YOU LISTENING.

Your info is WRONG.....
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 09:05:56 PM
As always you are right Borholio im sorry, ok not really but did you not see that I posted I got that info about your rates TODAY!?!

Say all you want, have the message in my inbox if BFG cares to validate my claims about your sad as rates you were giving.

No one can ever get anything through that thick skull of yours because as always you are right lmao!

Here in case you missed it...I GOT YOUR ABOVE POSTED RATES TODAY, there did that make it through your thick skull or did it just fly in one ear and out the other like I suspect...
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:12:51 PM
As I say any member in KBF can tell you your information is ENTIRELY inaccurate.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: 2cycle space cowboy on February 17, 2015, 09:13:41 PM
WOW..(munch munch)..this is better than opening day of american sniper..(beer can opens)glug glug...lmao
borholio...thats friggin original...roflmao :o
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 09:15:11 PM
Ok not sure I can be any more clear than this.... I GOT THE RATES I INITIALLY POSTED TODAY FROM A KBF member....There did it make it through your thick skull that time or did it go out the other ear again!?!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Sam Carter on February 17, 2015, 09:16:09 PM
Whilst this is interesting,  surely they are still helping the lower players, those lower do not need to take up the offers, they can do the trades themselves at a much lower rate.

Nobody should have to tell the rest of the uni when they upgrade something, and if they are offering crap rates, surely it opens the door for others to offer packages, creating a bit of competition, that may increase the rates, as it did in conquest.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:19:08 PM
Hey Sam yeah we give shit away to lower ranks and new starters.   You wanna come play again?

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Sam Carter on February 17, 2015, 09:20:11 PM
Hey Sam yeah we give shit away to lower ranks and new starters.   You wanna come play again?



Thanks for the offer, Looking forward to eradeon 2..  :)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Klingon Warrior Rises on February 17, 2015, 09:21:24 PM
well here is your proof that your info is incorrect Saleen so regardless as if you make big bold letters or not your wrong...

and technically your storage gets 3.3qt per merch so you also dont give full credit value..


 Emperor Boris Alden‎
1 day ago
[ Delete ]
      
Due to increased income

Upgrade to resources to be purchased with immediate effect.

Resources can be purchased as follows:

For 40k credits
xx Quad Ore
xx Quad Crystal
x Quad Hydro


Should any mix on the above levels is required just work it out on trade levels and trade the ore and crystal to hydro or vice versa.


In all communications to me please include the amount of credits the amount of resources and the location to be delivered to.

Always use [SQUARE] Brackets on all co-ords ‎‎‎[5:250:1m]


Remember 40k credits is what five bucks so the price of a beer.

Should you not receive resources same day let me know ASP if I missed you out...
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 09:23:58 PM
Seriously chadly, that has nothing to do with what I posted.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:25:44 PM
Dim but Tim

I've not had so much fun since my Auntie died.....
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:27:59 PM
Seriously chadly, that has nothing to do with what I posted.

Really... ROFL
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kaglee1701 on February 17, 2015, 09:28:21 PM
Somebody pass that popcorn down to this end - I'm hungry.

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Theo on February 17, 2015, 09:28:58 PM
was she awake or was it at the wake :)


HANG ON that means it's my Aunty also get off my Aunty ;p
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Klingon Warrior Rises on February 17, 2015, 09:30:27 PM
wow you got his rates today but yet that post on boris's rates was posted yesterday!!

wow wow wow..

I must go now to figure the stupidity out..



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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #9 on: Today at 09:05:56 PM »



Here in case you missed it...I GOT YOUR ABOVE POSTED RATES TODAY, there did that make it through your thick skull or did it just fly in one ear and out the other like I suspect...
« Last Edit: Today at 09:10:50 PM by saleen »


once again you got his rates today but yet that post is dated yesterday..



Either way I still offer better rates then you do.. Ask around those are small fry rates
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 09:30:43 PM
Whilst this is interesting,  surely they are still helping the lower players, those lower do not need to take up the offers, they can do the trades themselves at a much lower rate.

Nobody should have to tell the rest of the uni when they upgrade something, and if they are offering crap rates, surely it opens the door for others to offer packages, creating a bit of competition, that may increase the rates, as it did in conquest.

Yes surely it helps smaller players to get any rate better than what they can merch themselves.

To each his own when it comes to doing what one does, but I disagree with you in that when these liars tell you they have level 54 storage and can give xxxx amount of resources for xxx credits when they really have lvl 54 storage they are straight deceiving you and if anyone has morals they will agree its wrong to do that.


Really... ROFL

Yes really, what you sent to others for what they can get for 40,000 credits has absolutely nothing to do with my initial post.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:30:47 PM
Somebody pass that popcorn down to this end - I'm hungry.



AWESOME is it TOFFEE
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: jt_trouble on February 17, 2015, 09:31:34 PM
Well Saleen I can attest that your claim on rates is wrong.  And whomever gave that info to you has leaked some misinformation to make you look bad, and it worked seeing that you came here to tell the world.

On another note .. If you want my credits.

You better get ready to offer more than what you yourself offer, because I know it doesn't come close to what Boris or Theo has to offer.

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 09:33:38 PM
As always I expect nothing less from you JT and Chadly ;) Just dont swallow, I heard its bad for your breath!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:33:44 PM
Go and read some books on product demand and cash point of sale.

Sure you would understand if it was drugs.

Because we dunno what the hell you're smoking.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 17, 2015, 09:46:52 PM
Go and read some books on product demand and cash point of sale.

Sure you would understand if it was drugs.

Because we dunno what the hell you're smoking.

I know all about supply and demand, but clearly you dont take the supply end of the deal into consideration when you figure out your rates.

As for what im smoking its a fatty, but certainly not the same kind of fatty JT and Chadly been smoking on! roflmao ;)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: jt_trouble on February 17, 2015, 09:50:40 PM
As always I expect nothing less from you JT and Chadly ;) Just dont swallow, I heard its bad for your breath!

I'm sure you would know, thanks for the tip.

My post is unbiased, I have no need to lie to protect others.  You on the other hand should maybe rethink about who you call buddies in this game.  You got some bad information from them and you took it ran like a kid with candy.  I think maybe its time for you stop whining about the little things and worry more about your own integrity.

Your coming off more and more like tattle tale two year old ;)

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 17, 2015, 09:57:07 PM
I'm sure you would know, thanks for the tip.

My post is unbiased, I have no need to lie to protect others.  You on the other hand should maybe rethink about who you call buddies in this game.  You got some bad information from them and you took it ran like a kid with candy.  I think maybe its time for you stop whining about the little things and worry more about your own integrity.

Your coming off more and more like tattle tale two year old ;)



Say it like it is lol
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: krysst on February 17, 2015, 10:36:35 PM
Sam Carter hmmm now theres a welcome name to this zoo lol.. Didnt you try coming back already Sam?
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: CoolHand on February 17, 2015, 10:44:38 PM
Hey! Any beer left?
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Theo on February 17, 2015, 10:45:45 PM
yeah mate i have a few
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Klingon Warrior Rises on February 17, 2015, 11:01:47 PM
nice hit today coolhand.

I even warned them you were on the hunt!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: CoolHand on February 17, 2015, 11:06:00 PM
Thanks, now to figure out who is next? lol
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on February 18, 2015, 12:00:18 AM
meh.....

people will sell hydro (or rather convert) at whatever rate is applicable and deemed acceptable to them.

Thing is....helping the smaller/less developed players with 5k credits worth of hydro can keep them playing for a months..

I did this for almost 12 months in my universe....However....i always used the basis of a minimum 50k credits resulting in 9 trades for the buyer...

Personally, unless the ruling has changed, the only thing i'd be concerned about is saleen directly advertising that he/she/it is selling resources....last i knew/checked it was illegal to sell resources (unless of course he/she/it is claiming for 25k credits he/she/it is able to convert (through merching) enough resources with that amount of credits
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: ironshins on February 18, 2015, 01:36:23 AM
I brought more popcorn and a case of Total Domination IPA.

Who gives a damn what one charges for a product or service? The customer chooses whether, or not, to do business with a vendor:

"I'd rather have one percent of the efforts of 100 people than 100 percent of my own efforts."

"There are one hundred men seeking security to one man who is willing to risk his fortune."

"To succeed in business, to reach the top, an individual must know all it is possible to know about that business."

"The businessman who goes against the current of popular opinion should be expected to be opposed, derided and damned. That's what makes me rich!"

J. Paul Getty

So what's the movie again?, Flesh Gordon? Fokkin' way cool! Enough of this playground garbage already. Are we supposed to get naked while this is running? If so, we need more wimmins!!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: russant on February 18, 2015, 02:02:23 AM
Saleen what is the point of this thread?
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: 2cycle space cowboy on February 18, 2015, 02:12:07 AM
FATTY..dammit did i miss the rotation?? :'( i'll trade some poppy corn fer a beer if there's 1 left..lol  ;D
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Sam Carter on February 18, 2015, 06:06:44 AM
Sam Carter hmmm now theres a welcome name to this zoo lol.. Didnt you try coming back already Sam?

I did and got bored. Now play Eradeon only, passed my account in conquest this week, ready for the new uni. 2 is enough
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 18, 2015, 11:30:05 AM
Saleen what is the point of this thread?


The point appears to be to slag me off talking smack about stuff that is none of his business.

Then to try a clever'ish manouvre of topics accross to him selling credits.

Unbeknown to him I increase my rates in line with the targets and not inline with any hydro storage.

So his rates suck making him the offender and not me or Theo....

Bottom line is who hits the targets - Me and Theo who has the most res to sell at any point me and Theo...

Need I go on.

OK I will the buyer can always negotiate for a better deal.

Sometimes it's what is is.

Lot's of KBF are still building form previous purchases, and this also helps to keep the game alive and moving.

I guess if you don't like my rates go to Saleen but of course my rates are better.

We never posted RES FOR SALE as a topic because we dealt with this in game through our respective Alliances and anyone who chose to ask.

Well it seem's to me that clever dick is actually just a dick........

So guys clean up to beer bottels and cans through out the pop corn boxes show is over.

ROFL.............
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: lclaffy on February 18, 2015, 02:13:04 PM
This goes well with Vodka and Valium...rant on brothers..
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 18, 2015, 03:54:00 PM

The point appears to be to slag me off talking smack about stuff that is none of his business.

Then to try a clever'ish manouvre of topics accross to him selling credits.

Unbeknown to him I increase my rates in line with the targets and not inline with any hydro storage.

So his rates suck making him the offender and not me or Theo....

Bottom line is who hits the targets - Me and Theo who has the most res to sell at any point me and Theo...

Need I go on.

OK I will the buyer can always negotiate for a better deal.

Sometimes it's what is is.

Lot's of KBF are still building form previous purchases, and this also helps to keep the game alive and moving.

I guess if you don't like my rates go to Saleen but of course my rates are better.

We never posted RES FOR SALE as a topic because we dealt with this in game through our respective Alliances and anyone who chose to ask.

Well it seem's to me that clever dick is actually just a dick........

So guys clean up to beer bottels and cans through out the pop corn boxes show is over.

ROFL.............

and you do a whole post to show how much a twat you really are LMAO

by the way its 'bottles' and its not 'through' its throw you idiot!

Need I go on.

Ok I will, if you want to deal with someone whos going to STEAL your credits, LIE to you and do everything he can to "line" his pockets so he can play for free then by all means keep dealing with the two tossers at the top!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 18, 2015, 04:20:06 PM
Tim but very dim I'm afraid all you have done is show the sort of person you are your moral integrity is through the floor.

Everyone sees through it.

I'd by the way if you were in the UK this issue would be solved and you'd be eating through a straw.

Yep my integrity is intact....
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: saleen on February 18, 2015, 04:55:09 PM
I'd by the way if you were in the UK this issue would be solved and you'd be eating through a straw.

Oh personal threats now aye.

For one you were too much of a twat to jump out of an airplane when you were playing "solider" what makes you think you are any different today. lmao For two if I was in the UK i know you wouldnt be eating through your mouth whatsoever, if you were lucky you'd enjoy an occasional drip of nutrients....if you were lucky.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Sam Carter on February 18, 2015, 05:15:19 PM
C'mon boys, its a game shake hands and move on...
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Klingon Warrior Rises on February 18, 2015, 10:30:28 PM
Anyone on this list that wants to get a better rate then what Saleen offers message me, boris or Theo in game.. I can 100% fact say Saleen can not keep up with the demand and is only tring to sell his own resources because he has been cut off from using anyone's hydro storage. If I had to spend 500k credits a week to merch for 330qt hydro i would be trying to get your credits also..

For a fair market value and fair rates we have you covered! Each person has their own rates, shop around and see what serves you best..  Thank you very much!!


To: 2cycle Space Cowboy, <<SR>>, Admiral Crystal Diamond, Admiral Psymad, Admiral Smiley, Ammut, az, BLACK NIGHT, Bull, Bullit, Capt Bp, Capt. Beck, Captain Rocketman, Commander Gobineater, Commander GStar, Commander KTK, Commander LL, Commander Lunsford, COMMANDER SCOTT FORD, Commander Steve, CoolHand, Darth Mark, death, Eldar Odak, Fujita, GAFFLAD, Gallileo4, General Anya, ggg, Ghost of Macko, Gifted, goaheadandhate, Grave Digger, HEATZ, Ice Queen, It's Just Me, J Muz Hall, John, Jonquille, Kirsten Isobel, L.T. Commander DATA, LaZy PR, LB, Lord Farquhar, MACdougal, Marty "Ex2" McFly,  Moonrunner, Naughtius Maxximus, OAKFIELD, paul stanley, Pencil Neck Geek, Princess Peach, Psymad, Ranger1957, , roseanna, Sanctum, SaraMae, , souls salvation, Staffa kar Therma, starlight, The Darkness,  villi, White Dragon, Zavarok, Zdeněk, Zerstorer, Ziggy Jr, ͼͽ ñἑᾡᵭ ۩ £¥ẞЯѦɾịᾇȵ
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Mama on February 18, 2015, 11:04:03 PM
So what if Boris is doing trades, its no ones business apart from him and who ever decides to trade with him.

I guess Saleen is seeing the green eyed monster when he looks in the mirror :D
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 18, 2015, 11:21:36 PM
Oh personal threats now aye.

For one you were too much of a twat to jump out of an airplane when you were playing "solider" what makes you think you are any different today. lmao For two if I was in the UK i know you wouldnt be eating through your mouth whatsoever, if you were lucky you'd enjoy an occasional drip of nutrients....if you were lucky.

NO ONE PLAYS SOLDIER

SO I BELIEVE THE KEYBOARD WARRIOR HAS NOT BEEN SHOT AT OR BLOWN UP...

GUESS WHAT SHERLOCK I HAVE.

I SERVED QUEEN AND COUNTRY FOR OVER 23 YEARS.

I WOULD HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR YOU IF YOU JOINED THE GUARDS AND WENT OVER SEAS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OLD SOLDIERS ON HERE THAT WILL ALWAYS HAVE MY RESPECT......
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on February 18, 2015, 11:31:46 PM
more to the point....there's a lot of soldiers AND ex soldiers on here that play these games than you actually realise.

I been shot at countless times (a couple VERY near misses too)....but hell....some folks will always be CoD warriors thinking they know what's like
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 19, 2015, 12:59:50 PM
So what if Boris is doing trades, its no ones business apart from him and who ever decides to trade with him.

I guess Saleen is seeing the green eyed monster when he looks in the mirror :D

Thanks Mama
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: major max hooters on February 19, 2015, 01:58:20 PM
i have dealt with both Theo an Boris never had any issues with either of them.
if i honest both Boris an Theo give Gd rates saleen cant keep up with that.
if he can i will take 1 mil credits off u right here an now i need 1/4 th in g1 1/4th in g3 1/4 th in g5 an 1/4th in g7 can u cover that no u cant would take u a week to get half of it get a life saleen u a no body get over your self.

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: krysst on February 19, 2015, 02:58:30 PM
Tim but very dim I'm afraid all you have done is show the sort of person you are your moral integrity is through the floor.

Everyone sees through it.

I'd by the way if you were in the UK this issue would be solved and you'd be eating through a straw.

Yep my integrity is intact....

oooooh Krysst runs and grabs some more beer for the icebox... got real thirsty watching this show and drank it too fast :D
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Theo on February 22, 2015, 07:55:05 PM

Ok I will, if you want to deal with someone whos going to STEAL your credits, LIE to you and do everything he can to "line" his pockets so he can play for free then by all means keep dealing with the two tossers at the top!

and you theo you do the same shit Borholio does, give outdated rates to people even when you already completed the next level of storage. Now I do give you this theo, your rates were always better than Borholios, but when you started to be like your big brother by not telling people when you upgraded and such and still gave them the old rate you too became just like Boris... a thief so why dont you two go sit in the corner with a hat that has a Big T on it.



To each his own when it comes to doing what one does, but I disagree with you in that when these liars tell you they have level 54 storage and can give xxxx amount of resources for xxx credits when they really have lvl 54 storage they are straight deceiving you and if anyone has morals they will agree its wrong to do that.


Well first off I wouldnt call that a nice hit, only an idiot wastes more in hydro than all losses converted for what? you said it peanuts. Secondly you did exactly what I had hoped you would do! So yeah nice hit, but you are now officially the king of fools!

I can effectively say I killed 220bn zeus with my 5.9  As I said above only an idiot wastes more resources to kill not even .00015% of someones fleet! You had me rolling on the floor last night the second you launched! Nice work! I'll be spending another 80,000 credits of yours soon ;)

Oh and for anyone who does hydro trades with the above liar he has been giving you less than half of what he gets from each merchant. Only a thief in my opinion steals from his mates like you have been theo!

You get 13.4Q per merch now and you give what 6Q, but I suppose everyone expects you to follow in the foot steps of the other thief and liar.

Once a liar always a liar! Good luck trying to lie your way out of this one.



I posted all of these to give a cross section of the messages i receive in forum public domain and in private messages look like this:

you do know you are being a twat right, if not you should consider taking your meds!


After all of this i get a message like this

Saleen       about 11 hours ago
To: theo
Date: 2015-02-22 08:22:57 UTC
I see you just let boris get ahead of you in RSP and dang near have you in fleet too, you and I both know if he keeps it up hes going to get ahead of you again and we cant let that happen.

Its going to come down to who can burn more credits through the account to keep those athena running so maybe we can set aside the BS differences we have with the targets and work out something that is mutually beneficial?





Now let me explain you talk smack about me you put it in the forum for everyone to see and then in the background try and make arrangements to trade with me IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN YOU DON'T TALK DOWN TO PEOPLE AND EXPECT ANY LEVEL OF HELP  i didn't respond and i received this message

Saleen       14 minutes ago
To: theo
Date: 2015-02-22 19:39:52 UTC
you really should get over yourself, I've been merching my own hydro thank you very much so dont keep thinking I need you to play this game!!! ;)

lol seriously i haven't said anything in reply to the original message because well damn if he hasn't figured it out yet he isn't ever going to
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: 2cycle space cowboy on February 22, 2015, 08:34:01 PM
well being the noob i'm gonna have to make a beer run,anyone wanna chip in?? lclaffy save me a valium brother..last time i stepped outi missed the rotation..roflmao.. :o
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Theo on February 23, 2015, 12:18:10 PM
    Saleen    re:    about 9 hours ago
To: theo
Date: 2015-02-23 01:17:45 UTC
yeah i'm incapable of talking respectfully to people like you who want to play the twat card.

Accusing you and PROVING you are a liar and a thief is personal and is one thing, business is another. People work deals with other people they don't necessarily like all the time, its a fact of life. If there is money to be made or money to be saved there is a deal to be made and if you don't like it you will always remain in the same position you are in.


Lol no proof has ever been shown :)

if you don't like it you will always remain in the same position you are in.

NUMBER 1 IN THE GAME I'M HAPPY WITH THAT POSITION :)


come on guys your 2 cents would you do trades with someone who accused you of being a liar and a thief

Also interestingly enough since he has been slating me and what i trade more and more people have come forward so he actually done me a huge favor

I personally don't do deals with people who act like this and guess what that is MY choice
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Boris Alden on February 23, 2015, 06:49:27 PM
Well I guess this says a lot........

(http://www.klingonblackfleet.co.uk/images/Suspended/Saleen_S.jpg)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: ironshins on February 23, 2015, 09:03:44 PM
But, but, there is still popcorn...
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: jt_trouble on February 23, 2015, 09:17:40 PM
But, but, there is still popcorn...

It may be a bit stale by now, but if Saleen comes back with one of his tirades, I'll gladly make more ;)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Crude on May 24, 2015, 10:47:37 PM
I must admit, I enjoyed my time in Kbf... All this Bs about trade rates and such, YOU DONT HAVE TO TAKE THE OFFER.. Stop whinging!
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 25, 2015, 02:05:57 AM
Wow, as I scrolled through this dying yet never dead thread, I read alot of trash talk because of Boris's trading ratio's.  I thought .. hmm ... how is that anybody's business but Boris's and those who trade with him?

As I continued reading, I found the same ass clown trashing a soldier's service to his country. A most cowardly and pathetic act to say the very least.  You see, I come from a military family ...

1. A Great Uncle who fought Hitler in WW2
2. My own father who served during Vietnam and for 20 years
3. My stepfather who served 3 tours in Korea and for 30 years
4. My brother who served in both Iraq campaigns and for 27 years
5. My nephew who serves today
6. I myself served but one enlistment, and therefore certainly gave the least of this listing.

So to hear somebody bashing ANY of the people who have provided him the rights and libertys to be able to voice his opinion, sets me out on a bit of a rage.  I don't care what you think about peoples playstyles or in game habits, but these people have sworn to give their very lives defending yours, so shut the hell up about their service. I for one am eternally grateful for all who have served, those who have lost their lives, those who remain maimed from service, and those who serve today that provide me the ability to even write this. Regardless of what country they have served, they have helped provide you the freedoms you take so liberally and without the slightest consideration for what that freedom has cost.

If you don't appreciate them, that's your issue to handle, but I don't think ANY of us should sit still and remain quiet when this garbage takes place.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 02:20:24 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the only one you mention that actually fought for FREEDOM was your great uncle. The rest were screwed over by their own government in pointless wars that only caused strife and discord and death and horror. They all deserve respect for standing up and enlisting to fight for freedom, but that doesn't mean they actually fought for freedom.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 25, 2015, 02:29:20 AM
The military is an extension of the government,  it does as ordered to do, that is it's function.  I could care less what any of them did, if they were the best line of admirals cooks ever enlisted, I would be equally as proud of them. they served, they gave, they sacrificed. That is the point, and there is  no other. They had no control of what that service would include, and they, nor I, would ever make excuses or apologize for any of it.

I respect and admire all who served, regardless of status, regardless of station.  They served, and in their service, we all enjoy our freedoms to this day. Without them, without a strong military, I doubt we would be having this conversation at all.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 02:38:07 AM
I don't doubt we'd be having this conversation. Every dictator falls. The more he tries to take, the faster he loses it all.

But I agree that those who serve deserve respect. I just wish governments respected them as the people do.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 25, 2015, 02:45:56 AM
I agree, they are sent into some pretty shitty situations sometimes, and that is regrettable. That some lose their lives over it is absolutely horrific, but that in no way tarnishes them or their service.  As always, in all countries, there are many many things we as the public are not made aware of, and probably never will be.  But our service men and women are not the ones to blame for any of that.

Now we could debate Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Viet Nam, and all the other conflicts, but that is taking our game in a direction its not really intended to do isn't it? 

My original intent was to halt the bashing of a servicemans sacrifice for his country, and gently remind us all as tomorrow approaches here in the US, to remember our men and women in uniform, and those who wore those uniforms before.

PS . if you know a veteran, tomorrow is a great day to thank them   :)

BTW Boris, even though you are not of my country's military, thank you for your service.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 02:51:10 AM
+1
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Buck-Rogers on May 25, 2015, 03:06:08 AM
I haven't posted in the forum in years, but felt the need to voice my opinion here.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, there are many in the game who have served their country and others who continue to wear the uniform of their country (as do I).  Service is sacrifice and at times difficult and trying.   

Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen are an extension of their government, as War is a continuation of politics by other means.  Don't blame service members for the political decisions of their elected officials.  We go where we are told and do the best job we can in this imperfect world. 

Respect your service member, you would not be enjoying the benefits of this game without their past sacrifice. 
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 25, 2015, 03:16:56 AM
Cen is correct in his assessment, besides WW2, in which case it was simply another case of all the other cases and nothing different like he, too, believes. They wont teach you in your history books in the US how US industries such as Ford were supplying the Nazis with logistics to help keep their campaign going. In WW2 the Yanks were in it for the profit and built an Empire on the back of European devastation, which they still profit from to this day.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 25, 2015, 03:19:22 AM
And how exactly does that diminish those who have served? Back to my original point,.....
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 25, 2015, 03:25:21 AM
And how exactly does that diminish those who have served? Back to my original point,.....

You are implying that for servicemen there is always a noble cause and I am simply pointing out that No, there isn't. Don't be so naïve! Instead there is always profit and geopolitical interests of governments no matter how they propagandize it.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 03:27:03 AM
I could get into a debate about WW2 but I don't really see the point. It's the most complex subject of the 20th century, and every country rewrote history to favour themselves above all others; with the exception of Germany itself.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 25, 2015, 03:28:00 AM
No, I am pointing out that our men and women in uniform deserve our respect and gratitude. They don't all go to chow and vote on where they are going next, and any blame for what they must do falls on the elected officials who order it, and us as citizens for allowing it in some cases.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 25, 2015, 03:41:36 AM
No, I am pointing out that our men and women in uniform deserve our respect and gratitude. They don't all go to chow and vote on where they are going next, and any blame for what they must do falls on the elected officials who order it, and us as citizens for allowing it in some cases.

That is a pretty flimsy argument.
While I do respect those who serve their country for noble causes, I don't see how respect is due to those who engage in illegal wars to further the geopolitical interests of their governments. Ignorance and impotence is not an excuse either. You should know what you are signing up for.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 25, 2015, 04:13:10 AM
That is a pretty flimsy argument.
While I do respect those who serve their country for noble causes, I don't see how respect is due to those who engage in illegal wars to further the geopolitical interests of their governments. Ignorance and impotence is not an excuse either. You should know what you are signing up for.

Serve for noble causes only? Seriously? Grace, have you a clue how the military works? You don't get to pick and choose when and where you care to serve, if you sign the line, you go where you are needed or ordered. Trying to place blame on those who serve for mistakes made by politicians is plainly ignorant. They cannot see into the future and think .. hey! something I don't personally believe in will happen in 1.3 years .. I better wait to sign up!

These people, throughout time have PROVIDED you the freedom to even make that statement. Some gave all in that sacrifice too. They exist today PRIMARILY to defend your country from you losing those precious freedoms.  Have they been called into do things we can now see in hindsight as mistakes? Absolutely, but their job was never to make that decision in the first place, their job is to go.

It aint perfect, never will be, but it beats the hell out of what some others have to live with.... like Kim Jong meathead executing his cabinet member with a freaking AA gun for falling asleep in a meeting. Try living there awhile, and I am sure you'll come to love your freedoms, and those who protect them, a tad more
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 25, 2015, 04:38:27 AM
Serve for noble causes only? Seriously? Grace, have you a clue how the military works? You don't get to pick and choose when and where you care to serve, if you sign the line, you go where you are needed or ordered. Trying to place blame on those who serve for mistakes made by politicians is plainly ignorant. They cannot see into the future and think .. hey! something I don't personally believe in will happen in 1.3 years .. I better wait to sign up!

These people, throughout time have PROVIDED you the freedom to even make that statement. Some gave all in that sacrifice too. They exist today PRIMARILY to defend your country from you losing those precious freedoms.  Have they been called into do things we can now see in hindsight as mistakes? Absolutely, but their job was never to make that decision in the first place, their job is to go.

It aint perfect, never will be, but it beats the hell out of what some others have to live with.... like Kim Jong meathead executing his cabinet member with a freaking AA gun for falling asleep in a meeting. Try living there awhile, and I am sure you'll come to love your freedoms, and those who protect them, a tad more

I understand perfectly how the military works. I appreciate that soldiers are sent to where they are required without choice. However, last time I checked, there was no national service requirement in the US so every soldier has the choice, first and foremost, on whether to sign up or not.

Also you have no idea what it is like in North Korea and neither do I so I am not going to speculate and will maintain an open mind. Suffice to say, however, if you do a bit of research and dig into the history of the Korean war, you will see why it is within the interests of the US government to paint it as a brutal dictatorial regime. Saudi Arabia is also a brutal regime. However, one which is good for business so their human rights abuses are kept on the down low.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 25, 2015, 12:06:18 PM
I don't need a crystal ball to tell you where there is a dictator, there is a problem with human rights on a serous level Grace... and if the report of the cabinet member was a fake, I am fairly certain we would have heard some kind of rebuttal out of North Korea, so I take it as fact.

And yes, our military is 100% voluntary service.... which is precisely why I choose to honor them, one and all.  Nobody made them sign up, and while there may be times they are sent to do a job that is questionable, in my heart that does not tarnish them. They stand a guard that I do not, to insure that I, and my children and grandchildren, can enjoy our freedoms and preserve our way of life.  If they are needed to defend this great nation from enemies outside or within, they stand at the ready to do so, and have sworn their very lives to do so.  I for one cannot imagine a greater sacrifice than to be willing to lay down your life, and I am eternally grateful for their service.

Note I am not defending the decisions of the politicians, I am merely honoring those who serve this country.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 25, 2015, 12:27:30 PM
Cen is correct in his assessment, besides WW2, in which case it was simply another case of all the other cases and nothing different like he, too, believes. They wont teach you in your history books in the US how US industries such as Ford were supplying the Nazis with logistics to help keep their campaign going. In WW2 the Yanks were in it for the profit and built an Empire on the back of European devastation, which they still profit from to this day.

And what the English and French will not tell you that after WWII, they were so hard up on holding onto the oil in the Mid-East they installed dictators to keep things in check. We all see now how that worked out. Correct??
As pointed out by WGW, we can go round and round about the political points. But that's not the point. We are talking about those who serviced who don't/didn't give a rats ass about the politics.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 25, 2015, 12:36:20 PM
I understand perfectly how the military works. I appreciate that soldiers are sent to where they are required without choice. However, last time I checked, there was no national service requirement in the US so every soldier has the choice, first and foremost, on whether to sign up or not.

Also you have no idea what it is like in North Korea and neither do I so I am not going to speculate and will maintain an open mind. Suffice to say, however, if you do a bit of research and dig into the history of the Korean war, you will see why it is within the interests of the US government to paint it as a brutal dictatorial regime. Saudi Arabia is also a brutal regime. However, one which is good for business so their human rights abuses are kept on the down low.

Grace,

Your first paragraph should be highlighted. Since the Vietnam War, we in the State's have not had a draft. Those of us you served chose to do so.

Your second paragraph is false. We do know what goes on in North Korea and it is disgusting. Not only human rights violations, but MAJOR quality of life issues.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 12:46:39 PM
Saudi Arabia is no better. Nor is Qatar, the country with the worlds biggest slave population. Literally.

I don't agree with Grace on honouring soldiers, but if you think the US isn't the worlds biggest hypocrite when it comes to foreign policy, you have another think coming. At least half the dictators in the world in the last 20 years were installed by the US. The reason Cuba went on the US's shitlist is because they threw the US dictator out. Half of South America has had to depose American dictators.

And much of the reason North Korea is in such bad shape is because the US made it that way.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 25, 2015, 12:49:20 PM
Censored - why don't you agree about honoring soldiers? Forget the politics. Every country has its hands in the cookie jar. They are always looking to get the upper edge.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 25, 2015, 12:51:21 PM
And you are way off on North Korea. Their government did that to themselves. And their people eat that up.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 12:52:38 PM
No, the US screwed up North Korea by strangling North Korea. YOU are way off.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 12:54:22 PM
Censored - why don't you agree about honoring soldiers? Forget the politics. Every country has its hands in the cookie jar. They are always looking to get the upper edge.

Are you suggesting I shouldn't honour them? I thought you also disagreed with Grace on that point.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 25, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
Are you suggesting I shouldn't honour them? I thought you also disagreed with Grace on that point.

Disregard this point. I misunderstood.

However North Korea. So one country, the United States, is strangling them? Their buddies in China, and Russia, can't help them? And even if they are being so strangled, how are they managing such a military presence? Developing nukes? How about they develop more farm fields. Miniaturizing nukes? No easy feat. How about miniaturizing their military budget.
That country is going to cause a major issues if lil' Kim keeps up his nonsense. You think South Korea was happy when the North sunk one of their destroyers. It took a lot to walk that back.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 01:23:39 PM
No their 'buddies' (and I use the term very loosely) can't help them. Not much anyway. They do what they can, in their own interests, but why would Russia or China risk war with the US over North Korea?
When you are cut off from 99% of the global economy, you suffer.
They manage a military presence because sanctions can only do so much damage. In North Koreas case, every time more sanctions appear the people suffer more than the government.
First the US let Japan annex the whole peninsula, then the US got the UN to divide the country in half, and then the US imposed crippling sanctions DECADES before North Korea ever had a nuke. The fact is that North Korea began their nuclear programme to defend themselves. That they actually got some is testament to their capabilities.

The current government might as well have been placed there by the US. Most everyone in North Korea supports the government because they know damn well that the US is not and has never been their friend. A century of bullying will make you an enemy, no matter what country it is that you bully.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 25, 2015, 01:39:01 PM
Well that's my point. Sanctions were in place long before they had a nuke. So what do they decide to do? Let's develop a nuclear weapons and screw feeding our people. And for defense you say? That is a weak argument. Who was going into invade them? No one.
And even if all that was the State's fault, what does that have to do with what goes on over there. Concentration camps that revival those of the Nazi's. Shooting someone because they disagree. Free thought over there is only free as long as you agree with lil' Kim. Notice he is the only one who has any weight on him? He never misses a meal, but his people do.
We can sit here and fill this thread up until the cows come home. It's never going to change our opinions. I'm done high jacking this thread. To those who served/serve, I salute you. Moving on.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 25, 2015, 01:41:57 PM
I will make one final comment on this before I leave you all to it.

First and foremost, if you sign up to join the army, then you sign up for everything that goes with it. If you want to honour this, then good for you. While I do realise that there  are some soldiers who believe they are fighting a noble cause, if the truth be told, every war the US has engaged in since and during WW2 has been to further their own geopolitical ends. When they tell you that you are serving to protect you country, what they really mean is that you are protecting their global interests.

2ndly, there are more human rights abuses in the US than there are in North Korea so before you start pointing fingers at any other country, you need to look a lil closer to home first.

Finally, people join the military for different reasons. Some are indoctrinated since childhood with all of that justice and liberty crap. Others are do it as a way out of poverty or whatever other reason. There are also some who actually believe that they are defending their country when, in fact, it is not their country which needs defending but rather the other way round.

I respect servicemen in principle if they believe they are joining up for the right reasons. However, I wont respect a soldier just because he joined up and has bee shot at. Really, so what? It is your job and what you signed up for and my respect goes first and foremost to those refugees and devastated communities who's lives have been destroyed by your warped notions of justice, honour and democracy. Seriously, go and preach to an orphaned child who's parents were killed by US drones that you are serving for the right reasons and how worthy you are of their respect.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 25, 2015, 01:45:51 PM
Your second paragraph is false. We do know what goes on in North Korea and it is disgusting. Not only human rights violations, but MAJOR quality of life issues.

No, you don't. You only know what propaganda your corporate media feeds you. North Korea is a buffer zone for china... who the US are doing their best to contain and restrain. Take a look at a world map and you will see that the US has Both China and Russia surrounded with military bases.

North Korea has nukes to protect itself from US imperialism.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 25, 2015, 01:51:39 PM
Well that's my point. Sanctions were in place long before they had a nuke. So what do they decide to do? Let's develop a nuclear weapons and screw feeding our people. And for defense you say? That is a weak argument. Who was going into invade them? No one.

When the worlds most powerful country puts a major military base complete with atomic weapons right on your border, a little paranoia is to be expected. I'd have done exactly the same thing. And now that they've done it, they have the capability to royally screw the US over if the US tries to invade. And the US knows it. So to a certain extent North Korea is safe.
Until China finishes with the southern seas and steps on them, anyway.

And even if all that was the State's fault, what does that have to do with what goes on over there. Concentration camps that revival those of the Nazi's. Shooting someone because they disagree. Free thought over there is only free as long as you agree with lil' Kim. Notice he is the only one who has any weight on him? He never misses a meal, but his people do.

Because of US sanctions. The people weren't starving until the US screwed them.
And if it's so bad that North Korea does it, why is the US doing it in Guantanamo? Why does the US imprison more people than anyone else? Why does the US ally with the brutal Saudi's and the slave traders in Qatar? It's hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 27, 2015, 05:07:47 PM
Odd how all this US bashing takes place until you need us huh?  :::::WWII::::::   :::cough cough::::

and weren't a SHITPILE of other countries also involved in all these military actions you protest so loudly? Oh wait ... they were involved, just too freaking cheap to foot the big bill so they sent little "hey we're there too!" forces .. just not enuff to dig the outhouses is all .... I remember now   :"P
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 27, 2015, 05:14:21 PM
Lets see here ... Korean War

Australian
Belgium
Canada
Colombia
Denmark
Ethiopia
France
Greece
Holland (Netherlands)
India
Italy
Luxembourg
New Zealand
Norway
Philippines
Republic of South Korea
South Africa
Sweden
Thailand
Turkey
United Kingdom


Vietnam
France
Japan
The United Kingdom (members of Allied Control Commission (ACC))
India (members of ACC)
Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam)
Soviet Union
People’s Republic of China
North Korea
Cuba
Laos (Kingdom of Laos and Pathet Lao)
Cambodia (Khmer Republic and Khmer Rouge)
Republic of Vietnam ( aka South Vietnam (1955 – 1975) succeeded State of Vietnam (1949 – 1955) )
The United States
South Korea
Australia
New Zealand
Thailand
Philippines
Taiwan
Spain
Canada

Iraq
United States
Iraq
United Kingdom (2003-09)
Australia (2003-09)
Poland (2003-08)
Republic of Korea (2003-08)
Italy (2003-06)
Georgia (2003-08)
Ukraine (2003-08)
Netherlands (2003-05)
Spain (2003-04)

Afghanistan
United States,
United Kingdom,
Germany,
France,
Italy,
Canada,
Poland,
Netherlands,
Turkey,
Australia,
Spain,
Romania


Any other bullshit you wanna spread?
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 27, 2015, 05:58:41 PM
Odd how all this US bashing takes place until you need us huh?  :::::WWII::::::   :::cough cough::::

and weren't a SHITPILE of other countries also involved in all these military actions you protest so loudly? Oh wait ... they were involved, just too freaking cheap to foot the big bill so they sent little "hey we're there too!" forces .. just not enuff to dig the outhouses is all .... I remember now   :"P

You did squat in WWII compared to everyone else. The only war America ever won without help was the one they fought against themselves.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 27, 2015, 07:08:38 PM
WGW, Europe needs the US just like it needed the plague during the middle ages. And as far as WW2 goes... it was actually the Soviet Union who broke the back of the German army and forced it all the way back to berlin. It was also the Soviet Union who placed their flag on the Reichstag while the US were still thinking about joining the war. Your understanding of WW2 events is simply FALSE.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on May 27, 2015, 07:44:19 PM
lol you do none of you actually know the events of WWII at all unless you were there which i know none of you were not cen i have told you this in the past you bash america Imma bash your precious canada do you really want that and all you people that partaking in such bashing of troops are scum so its really not shocking that grace is posting in here this whole convo is just retarded totally not on topic of the thread at all drop it just drop it your internet logic is pathetic
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 27, 2015, 07:47:55 PM
Bash away Canada > America in every way. We did more to win both world wars than you. We also kicked your asses. You got nothin.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 27, 2015, 08:01:12 PM
you cannot argue with facts and fact of the matter is, despite what Hollywood would have you believe, the US joined WW2 when it was effectively over.

WW2 deaths

soviet Union = 24,000,000
USA = 418,500

http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/world-wide-deaths.html

Additionally, your president of the time, Truman, was responsible for the greatest genocide in the history of mankind when he dropped the Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Both Stalin and Hitler combined have nothing on him
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 27, 2015, 08:16:59 PM
To the credit of many Americans, a lot of them did sign up with the British armed forces while their country sat back and did nothing. But not enough to claim they won the war. Not by a long shot.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 27, 2015, 11:23:03 PM
Boy you guys need to open a history book or two.

Grace,
Just because the Russians lost more than the Americans does not mean they fought more. Those brutal winter battles were hell on both the Germans and Russians.
And the Russians doing all the work? The reason why they were able to hold back and then push the Germans back was due to the fact that the Japanese had their hands full with a country they cowardly attacked. The Germans plan was for the Japs to attack from the west not attack the Americans.
The greatest genocide in history?? Come on.
Stalin made Hitler look like a school boy when it came to that word. He was killing his own left and right. Russian soldiers raped over 2 million women when they made it to Berlin. One in ten of those women committed suicide.    And what about Japan? Those soldiers took women by the thousands and literally raped them to death. Don't hear much about that do you? Why? Because Japan has been trying to keep it quiet by paying off China TO THIS DAY.
Bataan death march???
And let's talk about dropping the bombs. Let's see, we have an enemy that uses their own planes as suicide bombs. They will fight to the death by every man, woman, and child. So one bomb is dropped AND THEY DON'T surrender. And let's remember, England gave approval for the drops. So do not sit there and think this was just an American decision.
Several 100k Japanese died verses the millions at the hands Hitler and Stalin. Truman is the bad guy??
Now we can debate about America holding out entering the war. But guess what. If it wasn't for the European countries...ahem...England and France, attempting to suck the Germans dry at that treaty, we would not have had to deal with this nonsense again in WWII. And as I stated earlier, they still did not learn their lesson and carved up the Middle East for themselves. Blood on their hands just as much.
Americans did nothing. What a joke. England did such a fine job holding on to territory when they were on the mainland. They were just lucky the Germans didn't wipe them out at Dunkirk. And you seriously think after that, they would be able to mount an invasion? They would tread water for awhile over the skies of England and then it would have ended. Christ, the Germans were not far behind the U.S as far as the bomb was concerned. You think they would have been torn when it came to dropping one on London? Please.
And you now what? No one is looking for thanks. Those soldiers did what needed to be done. You want to thank someone, thank the Canadians. Those poor guys got their asses handed to them and still kept coming.
There is American soil in France overlooking Omaha Beach. 9387 white head stones dot the landscape. You may have heard of it. It's called Normandy. Nuff said.

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 27, 2015, 11:34:55 PM
No, you don't. You only know what propaganda your corporate media feeds you. North Korea is a buffer zone for china... who the US are doing their best to contain and restrain. Take a look at a world map and you will see that the US has Both China and Russia surrounded with military bases.

North Korea has nukes to protect itself from US imperialism.

Yes we do. It is common knowledge what goes on in North Korea. Don't need any corporate media to tell me that. And North Korea needs nukes to protect itself? What a joke. We could take those nukes out with a couple of strategic bombings. And why nukes. Where has it ever been said that we would invade North Korea? Never. Those idiots are crazy enough to think they can get away with launching one. Do think the world will just sit back and watch? That's the scariest senario of all.
And speaking of corporate media propaganda. "The U.S. Has the highest human rights violations." That crap statement is the UN's standard play book. Paper tiger of an organization. How about they go talk to Qatar.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 27, 2015, 11:44:48 PM
You Americans are the ones who need to open a history book. One not written by your government.

The Russians fought for years while the Americans sat at home comfortable as can be. Every single nation on all sides fought longer and harder than the US, in both world wars.

Japan RIGHTFULLY attacked the US for cutting them off from oil. They even had the decency to hit a military target. While the US slaughtered civilians.
Japan was never working for the Nazi's. If the Axis had won the war, it likely would have been Germany Vs Japan next. They had a few treaties, but Germany/Italy was separate from Japan. They did not coordinate or work together.

All the participants in the war raped and pillaged. You just don't hear about it happening with your allies because it undermines the propaganda directed at your enemies.

American children participated in the war effort as much as Japanese children did, so the suggestion that the Japanese would have fought to the last is ridiculous. In FACT, Japan was already preparing to surrender when the US committed the most horrific war crime in all of human history.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 28, 2015, 12:50:03 AM
No, it isn't. The propaganda fed to you by your corporate media is what is common knowledge.

Yes, the US is notorious for human rights violations and Obama makes Kim Jong-Un look like Noble Peace prize material. Also your respect for the sovereignty of other nations is on a par with Nazi Germany.

You cannot get any more cowardly than dropping a nuclear bomb on a civilian population.

You seem to be under the illusion that I condone the antics of other nations during WW2 or any other war. I don't. Each and every government are out for their own ends and play their citizens for tools.

Yes, both Hitler and Stalin have nothing on Truman and Normandy was only possible because the Soviet Union had the Germans on the back foot. This is an historical fact and facts aren't up for dispute.

Even now, when it comes to world affairs, the US simply cannot behave itself and is hell bent on provoking war and destabilising other countries, flouting the rules of international law when it suits them.

The world would be a much safer place if the US minded its own feckin' business and worried about its own borders.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 28, 2015, 04:06:11 AM
lol.. amazing, everybody talks the trash till their ass is in a sling, then it's "hey ol buddy.. how aboot some help". oh wait .. what were those great Canadian .. err.. British... err... French .. err.. anybody except the US winning victories against the Japanese.  And then to say they rightfully attacked us because we stopped providing them resources? Guess what ... they were ours, and if you want what we got, you play nice or bugger off and find em elsewhere.  As to the nukes used to end that war .. sorry, that was THE ENEMY who dropped a sneak attack on us DURING PEACETIME, so you started the fight, don't bitch if you get your block knocked off. And if it was necessary to save countless american lives lost from invading Japan itself, sucks, regrettable, but ... they started it, we just finished it.

And Britain, while bravely fighting for its life, was dead meat without US intervention in the war. Who gave a shit enuff to save them? The French? Shit, point a slingshot at Paris and you get the ol white flag.  Soviets? They were a little busy with their own mess. An isolated island, bravely defended, would have eventually been taken.

So on one hand you say we didn't enter the war fast enuff (isolationism)  .. and on the other we should stay out such things,  pick a direction. 
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 28, 2015, 04:16:26 AM
Noone had to fight the Japanese because they were already on the ropes when they blasted Pearl Harbour. Typical American bs: shock and awe on the people who are ridiculously outclassed.

They were not your resources. The US didn't start producing significant amounts of oil products until more than 60 years later. You blockaded them so they kicked you in the teeth. You put an embargo on a country and you've declared war. Peacetime my ass. You provoked them, you literally asked them to try and smack you down. And then you got shocked when they did. Ridiculous.

Britain had already taken the worst the Nazi's had by the time you got involved. The Russians had already stopped the Nazi's in their tracks and they were by far the bigger threat.

France did more as a conquered nation to take down the Nazi's than the US did with a greater GDP than all the Axis combined.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 28, 2015, 07:08:19 AM
Cen is correct. There was an oil blockade on Japan at the time of the pearl harbour attack. It seems you fellers are heavily deprived of facts in your revised Hollywood version of history.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on May 28, 2015, 07:19:32 AM
So on one hand you say we didn't enter the war fast enuff (isolationism)  .. and on the other we should stay out such things,  pick a direction.

yes, stay the feck out and worry about your own continent. The Nazis were already defeated before you entered the war and Europe is still suffering today the effects of US occupation. Hitler wouldn't have got as far as he did if he wasn't supplied with logistics by US corporations.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 28, 2015, 12:47:19 PM
Yes very true, the U.S. did block oil from Japan. Because they were attempting to slow down and stop what they were doing. What do you expect? Again, you bitch that we sat back, and then you claim it was their right to cowardly attack us?
'Typical shock and awe by the Americans.' Damn straight. You want to mess with the big boy on the block, you better be prepared to get your ass handed to you. The Japs were not 'preparing to surrender' at the time of the atomic drops. They were digging in. The Emperor was considering it, but was talked out of it by his advisors.

And I am going to say this one more time. The dropping of the bombs was a mutual discussion by BOTH countries.
And Germany was no where near on the ropes by the time of the invasion. Many new weapons were coming online that would have greatly effected the war. The Germans would not have worried about the western front had it not been for the U.S. And the Germans and Japanese coordinated more than you think. Yes it would have been a Germany vs Japan fight had the two been victorious. They were using each other.
'Corporate media propaganda' and Hollywood. I get my entertainment from Hollywood, not the news. I don't know what moron does. As far as the media, you take it with a grain of salt. If you hear something do your own research, which I do. I have had the unique experience of having family fighting on both sides of the war. And the perspectives are very interesting. The media has been way off many, many times.
And as far as helping Hitler-
Well Neville Chamberlain did such a great job holding him back.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 28, 2015, 01:53:36 PM
An attack on a military target isn't cowardly. An attack on civilians is cowardly.

The embargo you put up was a half assed way to join the war effort without joining the war. So no, I won't give you any credit for it. While Europe bled you stayed out of the fighting, until the tide had already turned. And for going on 70 years the US has tried to claim they won the war. Well you didn't. You did nothing compared to everyone else. You did nothing compared to Canada or France or Russia or England and the list goes on.

So what you conferred with the English? At the time they were as bad as you are now. Trying to control the world with an empire. You think I'm defending them? Ha! This isn't about the English. This started with ignorant Americans claiming they saved the world. When they did no such thing. When they had less impact on the war than every other Allied country involved. You don't get credit when you sit on your asses while everyone else is actually fighting.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 28, 2015, 02:38:04 PM
lol we weren't the only nation close to making the bomb, and without US involvement in Europe, you may have won, but it would have been alot slower, and maybe that delay would have given Hitler the time he needed to show you what abuse of a power on that level really would have looked like.

Oh . .and as for Normandy ...

On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The American forces landed numbered 73,000: 23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops. In the British and Canadian sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British): 24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and 7900 airborne troops.

Get it? almost 50% of THE ENTIRE LANDING FORCE was American ... wonder how you would have fared without them.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 28, 2015, 02:46:19 PM
Yes it would have taken longer. Yes many more people would have died. Yes the US helped significantly.

But that's a far cry from winning the war singlehandedly and saving the world.

As for Normandy, you wouldn't have landed a single soldier if not for Canada. You tried and failed. The English tried and failed. Then Canada did it, allowing the rest of you to do so.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 28, 2015, 03:18:45 PM
America has never claimed to have won the war. It was an allied effort. We even sided with a nation we did not like. I never hear on Memorial Day, or VE Day that it was America that won. It word 'allies' is always used.
And as far as staying out of it. It was Europes mess to begin with. Let's start with WWI. Everyone was ready to jump into a war. "Oh, it will be over by Christmas", most of the top brass said. Then as it dragged on the allies looked to the U.S. to tip the scales. Then after the victory, they literally try to pound the Germans to the Stone Age. Carved up their colonies like greedy little wolves. And when it came time to stand up to them, every one of them shrunk into the shadows. And you question why the American people did not want to get involved? It was Europe's mess, they should have cleaned it up. Cut their militaries to the bone. As far as I'm concerned it was not two wars, but one big mess.
And we are all damn lucky that the Japanese did not occupy Hawaii as was planned. The U.S. would have had one hell of a time getting those back and continuing the fight. The war would have dragged on for years more.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 28, 2015, 03:23:33 PM
Oh and your right, censored, an attack on a military target is not cowardly. But it is when you have a peace treaty in place and making nicy nice. It was cowardly to do on a Sunday, when families were out and about going to church, BBQ's, and other family functions.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 28, 2015, 03:50:35 PM
America has never claimed to have won the war.

Oh really. I must have been imagining things my entire life. As a nation, officially, the US has never claimed such a thing no. But every single time the subject of WWII comes up and there's an American around, that's exactly what I hear. I see it on tv and in movies. I hear it on the radio. I see it coming from politicians (usually republican).
People from the US are the only ones I've ever heard try to take credit too. Even the Russians don't, and they are the ones who'd have the most right to (though it wouldn't be any more true for them. If not for Europe the Nazi's wouldn't have been halted before they reached Moscow).

Re: Pearl Harbour, I recall learning a long time ago that Japan had ordered their ambassador to deliver a declaration of war before the attack was launched. He screwed up. It wasn't supposed to be an underhanded surprise attack.

And I still don't believe it justified a nuclear response on civilian targets even if that were not the case.The US could have dropped a nuke on the Japanese fleet, or just offshore of shipyards, and the political impact would have been the same; with the destruction largely confined to military targets and a civilian population of millions being witness to the event instead of casualties.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on May 28, 2015, 06:53:40 PM
wow.....so let me understand what is being claimed here...

america saved the world at WW2, and now the claim america again saved the world in WW1...

just to put some things in to perspective on WW1...by the time the USA entered in 1917 (3 years AFTER the war started) around 22 million deaths and casualties had occurred.....in 12 months of the USA entering roughly 15 million deaths and casualties had occured....this makes a rough guesstimated (as it cannot by originally sourced) of 37+ million deaths and casualties..

England alone lost 1.2million service personal in conflict whilst the USA lost only around the 115 - 120k number....almost half of those deaths were caused by a plague...

In other news....the americans who think 'hey look we saved the world twice' should actually think long and hard......the american government was almost swayed by its population to side with germany......

Now.....you categorically state that the issue in eurpoe was OUR mess....hmmmmmmm you americans should REALLY REALLY learn your history and stop talking out ya ass's....

WW2 was a result of YOUR direct interference via your president.....woodrow wilson who demanded control of the conditioning of surrender and the terms/sanctions...Wilson stripped germany bare of natural rescources and forced the complete abolishment of any military development.  He placed HEAVY sanctions on germany to be policed/governed and  maintained by the french, british and other allied nations..


in WW2 the USA suffered more deaths and casualties than almost every other nation because they were led by imbeciles who always wanted to do things there way with the americans up-top....

If not for the british and the RAF eurpoe would have been lost....america would then have been shitting bricks facing a war on 2 fronts in both it's east and west coasts
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 28, 2015, 08:28:13 PM


Re: Pearl Harbour, I recall learning a long time ago that Japan had ordered their ambassador to deliver a declaration of war before the attack was launched. He screwed up. It wasn't supposed to be an underhanded surprise attack.

Yes that was supposed to be the case. However the regular typist who was converting the Japanese declaration of over to English was out that day. A back up was brought in and he typed to slow. That's why they missed the deadline. The Ambassador waited until all pages were translated.  But everyone on the Japanese side knew this. The attack force going in knew that the declaration was not delivered. They went in anyway.

And kru. Both sets of my grandparents will tell you differently about who did the actual rapingand pillaging. Good ol France. Now I am no fan of that putz Wilson but that's a whole nother story.

And you guys are watching too many movies and TV. Who cares what they say in a fictional story. Geez lighten up.
And where were the Germans when they surrendered? On foreign soil. Where do you think they would have been without the Americans? Again it was a team effort. Allies. Not just America.
And during that period of time two countries became great allies.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 28, 2015, 09:05:58 PM
Actually, the document to be delivered before the attack was NOT a formal declaration of war, the actual declaration by Japan did not occur until 12/8... when published nationally in Japan. The document, while a clear precursor to war itself, made no formal declaration of War. So even if it had been delivered on time, the attack was still without a formal declaration.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 28, 2015, 09:11:19 PM
The text of the document handed by the Japanese Ambassador to the Secretary of State at 2:20 p.m., December 7, 1941, reads as follows:

Memorandum

The government of Japan, prompted by a genuine desire to come to an amicable understanding with the Government of the United States in order that the two countries by their joint efforts may secure the peace of the Pacific Area and thereby contribute toward the realization of world peace, has continued negotiations with the utmost sincerity since April last with the Government of the United States regarding the adjustment and advancement of Japanese-American relations and the stabilization of the Pacific Area.
The Japanese Government has the honor to state frankly its views concerning the claims the American Government has persistently maintained as well as the measure the United States and Great Britain have taken toward Japan during these eight months.

It is the immutable policy of the Japanese Government to insure the stability of East Asia and to promote world peace and thereby to enable all nations to find each its proper place in the world.
Ever since China Affair broke out owing to the failure on the part of China to comprehend Japan's true intentions, the Japanese Government has striven for the restoration of peace and it has consistently exerted its best efforts to prevent the extension of war-like disturbances. It was also to that end that in September last year Japan concluded the Tripartite Pace with Germany and Italy.

However, both the United States and Great Britain have resorted to every possible measure to assist the Chungking regime so as to obstruct the establishment of a general peace between Japan and China, interfering with Japan's constructive endeavours toward the stabilization of East Asia. Exerting pressure on the Netherlands East Indies, or menacing French Indo-China, they have attempted to frustrate Japan's aspiration to the ideal of common prosperity in cooperation with these regimes. Furthermore, when Japan in accordance with its protocol with France took measures of joint defense of French Indo-China, both American and British Governments, willfully misinterpreting it as a threat to their own possessions, and inducing the Netherlands Government to follow suit, they enforced the assets freezing order, thus severing economic relations with Japan. While manifesting thus an obviously hostile attitude, these countries have strengthened their military preparations perfecting an encirclement of Japan, and have brought about a situation which endangers the very existence of the Empire.

Nevertheless, to facilitate a speedy settlement, the Premier of Japan proposed, in August last, to meet the President of the United States for a discussion of important problems between the two countries covering the entire Pacific area. However, the American Government, while accepting in principle the Japanese proposal, insisted that the meeting should take place after an agreement of view had been reached on fundamental and essential questions.

Subsequently, on September 25th the Japanese Government submitted a proposal based on the formula proposed by the American Government, taking fully into consideration past American claims and also incorporating Japanese views. Repeated discussions proved of no avail in producing readily an agreement of view. The present cabinet, therefore, submitted a revised proposal, moderating still further the Japanese claims regarding the principal points of difficulty in the negotiation and endeavoured strenuously to reach a settlement. But the American Government, adhering steadfastly to its original assertions, failed to display in the slightest degree a spirit of conciliation. The negotiation made no progress.
Therefore, the Japanese Government, with a view to doing its utmost for averting a crisis in Japanese-American relations, submitted on November 20th still another proposal in order to arrive at an equitable solution of the more essential and urgent questions which, simplifying its previous proposal, stipulated the following points:

The Government of Japan and the United States undertake not to dispatch armed forces into any of the regions, excepting French Indo-China, in the Southeastern Asia and the Southern Pacific area.
Both Governments shall cooperate with the view to securing the acquisition in the Netherlands East Indies of those goods and commodities of which the two countries are in need.
Both Governments mutually undertake to restore commercial relations to those prevailing prior to the freezing of assets.
The Government of the United States shall supply Japan the required quantity of oil.

The Government of the United States undertakes not to resort to measures and actions prejudicial to the endeavours for the restoration of general peace between Japan and China.
The Japanese Government undertakes to withdraw troops now stationed in French Indo-China upon either the restoration of peace between Japan and China or establishment of an equitable peace in the Pacific Area; and it is prepared to remove the Japanese troops in the southern part of French Indo-China to the northern part upon the conclusion of the present agreement.
As regards China, the Japanese Government, while expressing its readiness to accept the offer of the President of the United States to act as 'introducer' of peace between Japan and China as was previously suggested, asked for an undertaking on the part of the United States to do nothing prejudicial to the restoration of Sino-Japanese peace when the two parties have commenced direct negotiations.

The American Government not only rejected the above-mentioned new proposal, but made known its intention to continue its aid to Chiang Kai-shek; and in spite of its suggestion mentioned above, withdrew the offer of the President to act as so-called 'introducer' of peace between Japan and China, pleading that time was not yet ripe for it. Finally on November 26th, in an attitude to impose upon the Japanese Government those principles it has persistently maintained, the American Government made a proposal totally ignoring Japanese claims, which is a source of profound regret to the Japanese Government.

From the beginning of the present negotiation the Japanese Government has always maintained an attitude of fairness and moderation, and did its best to reach a settlement, for which it made all possible concessions often in spite of great difficulties. As for the China question which constitutes an important subject of the negotiation, the Japanese Government showed a most conciliatory attitude. As for the principle of non-discrimination in international commerce, advocated by the American Government, the Japanese Government expressed its desire to see the said principle applied throughout the world, and declared that along with the actual practice of this principle in the world, the Japanese Government would endeavour to apply the same in the Pacific area including China, and made it clear that Japan had no intention of excluding from China economic activities of third powers pursued on an equitable basis. Furthermore, as regards the question of withdrawing troops from French Indo-China, the Japanese Government even volunteered, as mentioned above, to carry out an immediate evacuation of troops from Southern French Indo-China as a measure of easing the situation.
It is presumed that the spirit of conciliation exhibited to the utmost degree by the Japanese Government in all these matters is fully appreciated by the American Government.

On the other hand, the American Government, always holding fast to theories in disregard of realities, and refusing to yield an inch on its impractical principles, cause undue delay in the negotiation. It is difficult to understand this attitude of the American Government and the Japanese Government desires to call the attention of the American Government especially to the following points:

The American Government advocates in the name of world peace those principles favorable to it and urges upon the Japanese Government the acceptance thereof. The peace of the world may be brought about only by discovering a mutually acceptable formula through recognition of the reality of the situation and mutual appreciation of one another's position. An attitude such as ignores realities and impose (sic) one's selfish views upon others will scarcely serve the purpose of facilitating the consummation of negotiations.
Of the various principles put forward by the American Government as a basis of the Japanese-American Agreement, there are some which the Japanese Government is ready to accept in principle, but in view of the world's actual condition it seems only a utopian ideal on the part of the American Government to attempt to force their immediate adoption.

Again, the proposal to conclude a multilateral non-aggression pact between Japan, United States, Great Britain, China, the Soviet Union, the Netherlands and Thailand, which is patterned after the old concept of collective security, is far removed from the realities of East Asia.

The American proposal contained a stipulation which states - 'Both Governments will agree that no agreement, which either has concluded with any third power or powers, shall be interpreted by it in such a way as to conflict with the fundamental purpose of this agreement, the establishment and preservation of peace throughout the Pacific area.' It is presumed that the above provision has been proposed with a view to restrain Japan from fulfilling its obligations under the Tripartite Pact when the United States participates in the war in Europe, and, as such, it cannot be accepted by the Japanese Government.
The American Government, obsessed with its own views and opinions, may be said to be scheming for the extension of the war. While it seeks, on the one hand, to secure its rear by stabilizing the Pacific Area, it is engaged, on the other hand, in aiding Great Britain and preparing to attack, in the name of self-defense, Germany and Italy, two Powers that are striving to establish a new order in Europe. Such a policy is totally at variance with the many principles upon which the American Government proposes to found the stability of the Pacific Area through peaceful means.

Whereas the American Government, under the principles it rigidly upholds, objects to settle international issues through military pressure, it is exercising in conjunction with Great Britain and other nations pressure by economic power. Recourse to such pressure as a means of dealing with international relations should be condemned as it is at times more inhumane that military pressure.
It is impossible not to reach the conclusion that the American Government desires to maintain and strengthen, in coalition with Great Britain and other Powers, its dominant position in has hitherto occupied not only in China but in other areas of East Asia. It is a fact of history that the countries of East Asia have for the past two hundred years or more have been compelled to observe the status quo under the Anglo- American policy of imperialistic exploitation and to sacrifice themselves to the prosperity of the two nations. The Japanese Government cannot tolerate the perpetuation of such a situation since it directly runs counter to Japan's fundamental policy to enable all nations to enjoy each its proper place in the world.
The stipulation proposed by the American Government relative to French Indo-China is a good exemplification of the above- mentioned American policy. Thus the six countries, - Japan, the United States, Great Britain, the Netherlands, China,, and Thailand, - excepting France, should undertake among themselves to respect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of French Indo-China and equality of treatment in trade and commerce would be tantamount to placing that territory under the joint guarantee of the Governments of those six countries. Apart from the fact that such a proposal totally ignores the position of France, it is unacceptable to the Japanese Government in that such an arrangement cannot but be considered as an extension to French Indo-China of a system similar to the Nine Power Treaty structure which is the chief factor responsible for the present predicament of East Asia.

All the items demanded of Japan by the American Government regarding China such as wholesale evacuation of troops or unconditional application of the principle of non-discrimination in international commerce ignored the actual conditions of China, and are calculated to destroy Japan's position as the stabilizing factor of East Asia. The attitude of the American Government in demanding Japan not to support militarily, politically or economically any regime other than the regime at Chungking, disregarding thereby the existence of the Nanking Government, shatters the very basis of the present negotiations. This demand of the American Government falling, as it does, in line with its above-mentioned refusal to cease from aiding the Chungking regime, demonstrates clearly the intention of the American Government to obstruct the restoration of normal relations between Japan and China and the return of peace to East Asia.
*(sic) In brief, the American proposal contains certain acceptable items such as those concerning commerce, including the conclusion of a trade agreement, mutual removal of the freezing restrictions, and stabilization of yen and dollar exchange, or the abolition of extra-territorial rights in China. On the other hand, however, the proposal in question ignores Japan's sacrifices in the four years of the China Affair, menaces the Empire's existence itself and disparages its honour and prestige. Therefore, viewed in its entirety, the Japanese Government regrets it cannot accept the proposal as a basis of negotiation.

The Japanese Government, in its desire for an early conclusion of the negotiation, proposed simultaneous ly with the conclusion of the Japanese-American negotiation, agreements to be signed with Great Britain and other interested countries. The proposal was accepted by the American Government. However, since the American Government has made the proposal of November 26th as a result of frequent consultation with Great Britain, Australia, the Netherlands and Chungking, and presumably by catering to the wishes of the Chungking regime in the questions of China, it must be concluded that all these countries are at one with the United States in ignoring Japan's position.
Obviously it is the intention of the American Government to conspire with Great Britain and other countries to obstruct Japan's effort toward the establishment of peace through the creation of a new order in East Asia, and especially to preserve Anglo-American rights and interest by keeping Japan and China at war. This intention has been revealed clearly during the course of the present negotiation.
Thus, the earnest hope of the Japanese Government to adjust Japanese-American relations and to preserve and promote the peace of the Pacific through cooperation with the American Government has finally been lost.

The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the American Government that in view of the attitude of the American Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiations.

December 7, 1941
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: CoolHand on May 28, 2015, 09:42:22 PM
WOW. So if I understand this totally off topic thread I guess all of you are saying war sucks? The USA sucks, Canada sucks, Japan sucks, Europe sucks, Russia sucks. I get it, the world we live in sucks. Instead of continuing on with this pointless thread why don't all of you do one thing today to make the world suck just a little bit less. Do something to make someone's life just a little bit better. Me? I made a donation to the Red Cross
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on May 28, 2015, 09:47:41 PM


And where were the Germans when they surrendered? On foreign soil. Where do you think they would have been without the Americans? Again it was a team effort. Allies. Not just America.
And during that period of time two countries became great allies.

just guessing here, but the formal surrender of the German Reich was in ermmmmm....what's the place....oh ye...GERMANY...

however...just to add some little controversy, the formal surrender of what was left of the Reich party couldn't technically surrender as Germany had already been split into East and West.  Many of the German leaders fled to the West to avoid capture by the Russians....but you know...that's an entirely different subject...but ummm ye!!!!! the surrender officially occurred in Berlin...which last i checked was Germany
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 29, 2015, 12:11:43 AM
I was speaking of WWI. German soldiers were in France.

And well stated WGW. Good show.

Coolhand, the world we live in does not suck. However, war does. And I do try to make it a little better every day. Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 29, 2015, 12:34:02 PM
As I said previously, the issue with the ambassador doesn't change the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were infinitely more cowardly and disgusting than Pearl Harbour. If Japan had hit L.A. you'd have an argument, and I wouldn't. But that isn't what happened. Japan sunk a few military ships so the US blew up two civilian cities. Which is even worse than what the Nazi's did to England. It was the most horrific dual action in human history. There are things that have happened over the span of years that were worse. But nothing that happened in the span of two days. 

WOW. So if I understand this totally off topic thread I guess all of you are saying war sucks? The USA sucks, Canada sucks, Japan sucks, Europe sucks, Russia sucks. I get it, the world we live in sucks. Instead of continuing on with this pointless thread why don't all of you do one thing today to make the world suck just a little bit less. Do something to make someone's life just a little bit better. Me? I made a donation to the Red Cross

War might suck, but war is the nature of the universe. It would be pointless to argue about it. I'm arguing against the idea that the US is in any way a saviour of the world, because it is most certainly not.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on May 30, 2015, 12:25:28 AM
Um... I think a few things happened in between those 'few ships' and the bombings.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 30, 2015, 02:52:22 AM
Geez .. you mean like ......

The 27.1% Death rate among Japanese held  POW's, mainly due to mistreatment and abuses?

March 20, 1943, the Japanese Navy was under orders to execute all prisoners taken at sea.

August 5, 1937 Emperor Hirohito removed the constraints of international law on treatment Chineese prisoners.

1,536 U.S. civilians who were killed or otherwise died of abuse and mistreatment in Japanese internment camps

In China alone, during 1937–45, approximately 3.9 million Chinese were killed, mostly civilians, as a direct result of the Japanese operations and 10.2 million in the course of the war

The Manila massacre of February 1945 that resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians in the Philippines. It is estimated that at least one out of every 20 Filipinos died at the hands of the Japanese during the occupation

The "Three Alls Policy" (Sankō Sakusen) that was implemented in China from 1942 to 1945 and was in itself responsible for the deaths of "more than 2.7 million" Chinese civilians. This scorched earth strategy, sanctioned by Hirohito himself, directed Japanese forces to "Kill All, Burn All, and Loot All.

That special Japanese military units conducted experiments on civilians and POWs in China. One of the most infamous was Unit 731 under Shirō Ishii. Unit 731 was established by order of Hirohito himself. Victims were subjected to experiments including but not limited to vivisection and amputations without anesthesia and testing of biological weapons.

During the final months of World War II, Japan had planned to use plague as a biological weapon against U.S. civilians in San Diego, California, during Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night, hoping that the plague would spread as much terror to the American population and thereby dissuading America from attacking Japan. The plan was set to launch at night on September 22, 1945, but Japan surrendered five weeks earlier

That war ended from those bombs dropping, its over, get past it, and build a better soapbox next time

225,000 Japanese were killed in those bombings, far far less than 3% of the innocents and prisoners they killed, and only an idiot would state that the bombs were worse because Japan took more time to kill millions more innocents.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 30, 2015, 03:51:16 AM
Geez .. you mean like ......

The 27.1% Death rate among Japanese held  POW's, mainly due to mistreatment and abuses?

Oh like the US was so much better, locking every single person who looked remotely Asian into concentration camps? Stealing their property and abusing them? You don't have a high horse here.

March 20, 1943, the Japanese Navy was under orders to execute all prisoners taken at sea.

Like the US put a lot of effort into taking prisoners.

August 5, 1937 Emperor Hirohito removed the constraints of international law on treatment Chineese prisoners.


There was no international law. You're making shit up.

1,536 U.S. civilians who were killed or otherwise died of abuse and mistreatment in Japanese internment camps

Considering the US killed 120,000-250,000 civilians, anything the Japanese did to POWs is irrelevant.

In China alone, during 1937–45, approximately 3.9 million Chinese were killed, mostly civilians, as a direct result of the Japanese operations and 10.2 million in the course of the war

Two wrongs don't make a right. All the US did was prove it was even more evil than Japan.

The Manila massacre of February 1945 that resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians in the Philippines. It is estimated that at least one out of every 20 Filipinos died at the hands of the Japanese during the occupation

Then why did you take so long to step in? Why aren't you in Africa right now, if you're so much the saviour? Why are you allied with the Saudi's and Qatar? That's right, you don't give a shit about anyone. You didn't step in until YOU got hit. Don't pretend you did it to save anyone, the whole world knows better.

The "Three Alls Policy" (Sankō Sakusen) that was implemented in China from 1942 to 1945 and was in itself responsible for the deaths of "more than 2.7 million" Chinese civilians. This scorched earth strategy, sanctioned by Hirohito himself, directed Japanese forces to "Kill All, Burn All, and Loot All.

Oh and China never did anything to Japan?
Like the US is any better. Invading Iraq to steal control of oil reserves. How many millions of people around the world has the US killed? I'll give you a hint: It makes the Japanese look like amateurs.

For every thing Japan did, I can name 10 that the US is responsible for. YOU get off your soap box and start acknowledging the reality that your country is the most brutal nation in the world since the British Empire collapsed.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on May 30, 2015, 04:47:40 AM
smh we are such vain creatures the thread say's sad day to be KBF i'd say its a sad day to be human such foolishness please answer this question if YOUR country was a super power would they be any different I HIGHLY DOUBT they would for we HUMANS are SELFISH beings the truth is no country has its hands clean debating on which one is less dirty or which one is dirtier is folly please you internet soap boxers need to get out of the past find a nice lass and f*ck your frustrations about the world away cuz it's really not like you few people bitching about it on here are gonna make any difference what so ever you're honestly being petty


ALL HAIL MN U.S.A.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 30, 2015, 12:03:43 PM
"if YOUR country was a super power would they be any different"

We'll find out in 50 some years.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 30, 2015, 05:33:10 PM
"if YOUR country was a super power would they be any different"

We'll find out in 50 some years.

REALLY?  You finally dedicate your scientists to developing the water using toilet?   :P

And don't overlook the water fountain while you're at it ... can save you alot of trips "down to the crick"  :P
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 30, 2015, 06:31:15 PM
Funny how all the brains in your country came from mine.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on May 30, 2015, 06:39:28 PM
At least they had the good sense to leave  ;)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 30, 2015, 06:40:33 PM
No they had the good sense to take your money while you still have some. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on May 30, 2015, 09:47:15 PM
ok hahaha but hahaha canada a super power hahaha oh jeez my side hurts now lol that'll be when hell freezes over and unicorns start flying and start shitting gold bricks
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on May 30, 2015, 09:55:32 PM
Your own scientists have said as much. Sucks to be you. :)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on June 01, 2015, 03:58:31 AM
Canada a super power eh? Whats that all aboot? hehehe - most of em might get er done, but those french Canadians  will bugger the deal for sure.

Been thru a couple times, nice folx, RIGHT up to the french part ....
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on June 02, 2015, 01:19:54 AM
If the US can be a superpower despite a good third of the population disbelieving in evolution and 21% of the population having a criminal record, I don't think Quebec will be nearly enough to halt Canada's progress.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on June 02, 2015, 10:11:03 AM
Cen, you are beating a dead horse here, mate - trying to reason with a childhood hollywood diet of captain America.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on June 02, 2015, 01:03:19 PM
Beating dead horses is one of my favourite pastimes. :)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on June 05, 2015, 02:34:42 PM
If the US can be a superpower despite a good third of the population disbelieving in evolution and 21% of the population having a criminal record, I don't think Quebec will be nearly enough to halt Canada's progress.

LOL!! Evolution? Honestly? Well... we have Tom Cruise and Scientology! I am sure that makes a gianormous dif too! Now you COULD bomb the Baldwins, we really wouldn't care, it was just a cartoon.

The problem being a super power is the same that anybody at the top has -- all the wanna be's talking smack from the cheap seats. So WHEN you are a super power - come back with your bragging rights flying high, till then, stay in the back of the bus quietly where you belong   :P
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on June 05, 2015, 04:11:28 PM
The only people on Earth who talk as much smack as Americans are the French. Probably why the US people hate them so much.

The irony is they've actually won wars. Unlike you. 8)

Also have to say you're the one sitting in the cheap seats. Your national debt is so high you can't even afford a lawn chair. You have to beg China to use theirs. lol
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on June 05, 2015, 04:34:45 PM
Empire? lol wgw what a clown you are. the US empire is akin to the tulip bubble. the only reason it has any value is because everyone else agrees that it does and not because it actually does. The US dollar isn't worth the paper it is printed on and the phoney empire would instantly collapse if the world collectively refrained from using it. I'll give you a clue... seeing as you have been indoctrinated to the point where you cant tell your arse from your elbow... this is why the US engage in so many illegal wars based on trumped up pretexts. It is not to protect national security or promote democracy, as you have been told to believe. It is to prevent the deficit catching up with you and turning you into a 3rd world nation.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: WGW on June 08, 2015, 04:39:48 AM
Hey Grace .. back on the pipe again? Who said Empire? lol

But whatever it is, its still waaaayyy more than Canada could ever handle.

And speaking of trumped up wars ... that WAS canada in Afghanistan, Desert Storm, Iraq, Libya, and Mali right? Tsk tsk .. glass houses Grace .. Glass houses
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on June 08, 2015, 06:45:25 AM
No not really. Up until the Harper dictatorship Canada was only peacekeeping. We refused to get involved with Iraq, much to the US's annoyance. We didn't lose a single soldier in all the years between Korea and Harper.
Since Harper things haven't gone so well, but what can you expect from a guy who is American in all but name? One can only hope he doesn't survive the next election.
At any rate, nothing we've done since Korea has actually been a war, even counting the decision by Harper to take a more aggressive role. When one arises that is worthy of our participation, you'll see Canada do what it always does: become one of the strongest military powers on Earth in less than a year. Until then, enjoy getting your butts kicked in the middle east.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on June 08, 2015, 08:22:35 AM
Hey Grace .. back on the pipe again? Who said Empire? lol

But whatever it is, its still waaaayyy more than Canada could ever handle.

And speaking of trumped up wars ... that WAS canada in Afghanistan, Desert Storm, Iraq, Libya, and Mali right? Tsk tsk .. glass houses Grace .. Glass houses

I don't smoke and I'm not Canadian. And I wouldn't throw stones if I lived in a glass house because unlike you I'm not a hypocrite. Your ill-informed comments show further how shallow your knowledge of history and geopolitics are so do yourself and the world a favour and go slap yourself over the head with a few history books which were not printed and published by the US propaganda machine. Millions of people the world over have been killed, displaced or orphaned as a result of US foreign policy and the world would be a much safer place if you minded your own business and refrained from behaving as though you owned it. Your very existence as a nation is based on occupation and the genocide of an indigenous population so it isn't surprising that you know no different. How long before you provoke war with China and drag us all into it because like a spoilt kid you cannot cope with the fact that they are doing much better than you economically?
How many military bases in how many countries do you have?
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on June 08, 2015, 03:19:13 PM
JEEEZ ya'll are PATHETIC sooooooooo PATHETIC
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 11, 2015, 11:16:15 PM
The problem being a super power is the same that anybody at the top has -- all the wanna be's talking smack from the cheap seats. So WHEN you are a super power - come back with your bragging rights flying high, till then, stay in the back of the bus quietly where you belong   :P

damn i missed this conversation.. i wouldve loved it .. but here's my point at least..

Yes, america is a superpower, however, they don't know how to wield it. I'd liken it to a person with down syndrome. All that might, but no thought to how it gets used. Often gentle happy souls, but can be terribly destructive without even realising it.

The problem with the term superpower nowadays.. is that it doesnt mean as much as it used to. The romans were a superpower, the english were a superpower.. later years although we've got bigger toys no-one really has the "power". It's actually those toys that nullifies it all.

Even the americans arent stupid enough to start a nuclear war, no-one would survive.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 11, 2015, 11:19:07 PM
#nukerussia

Look it up. lol
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 11, 2015, 11:24:51 PM
#nukerussia

Look it up. lol

bahaha.. i guess i better make the distinction.. i did mean the guys with the fingers on the trigger..
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 13, 2015, 10:28:33 PM
I can definitely see the yanks being stupid enough to one day think they can win a nuclear war with Russia.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 15, 2015, 04:30:52 AM
I can definitely see the yanks being stupid enough to one day think they can win a nuclear war with Russia.

I can say the same thing about you winning an argument with Cen you'll never win but you still keep trying priceless and for your information there are no "WINNERS" in a nuclear war everyone loses end of discussion
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 15, 2015, 03:21:48 PM
I can say the same thing about you winning an argument with Cen you'll never win but you still keep trying priceless and for your information there are no "WINNERS" in a nuclear war everyone loses end of discussion

trying to win an argument with Cen? lmao that is a very generous interpretation, dear. more like trying to shove a yorkshire terrier out of the way who keeps barking in front of my feet. Even they keep barking, too  8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 15, 2015, 03:48:59 PM
trying to win an argument with Cen? lmao that is a very generous interpretation, dear. more like trying to shove a yorkshire terrier out of the way who keeps barking in front of my feet. Even they keep barking, too  8)

Too bad you're a rat and I just keep grabbing you up in my mouth and chewing on you like you're a toy. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 15, 2015, 04:19:17 PM
Too bad you're a rat and I just keep grabbing you up in my mouth and chewing on you like you're a toy. 8)

hahah WOOF WOOF ;)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 15, 2015, 04:25:14 PM
hahah WOOF WOOF ;)

And the Grace goes squeak squeak squeak. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 15, 2015, 11:08:27 PM
Too bad you're a rat and I just keep grabbing you up in my mouth and chewing on you like you're a toy. 8)

Whoa you two have some kinky foreplay  ;)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 15, 2015, 11:41:05 PM
The best kind! Always have to warm them up before you bend them over. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 16, 2015, 12:51:46 PM
Too bad you're a rat and I just keep grabbing you up in my mouth and chewing on you like you're a toy. 8)

Is it only my mind, that went X-rated when it processed that? You're a walking, talking, breathing, euphemism not to be confused with euphemist, subtle you're not :P
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 16, 2015, 04:52:54 PM
It wasn't my original intent, but I'm happy to go wherever it takes me. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on July 22, 2015, 09:03:20 PM
The U.S. military has always taken a reactionary stance with her nuclear arsenal. Look up the Soviet tactics for the Cold War. Their plan was to bomb every major city in Western Europe with a tactical nuke. And then go in with ground troops. You want to take about who might do it, better turn around and look east. Putin may be the one. But don't worry, the Iranians are not far behind.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 22, 2015, 09:45:54 PM
The U.S. military has always taken a reactionary stance with her nuclear arsenal. Look up the Soviet tactics for the Cold War. Their plan was to bomb every major city in Western Europe with a tactical nuke. And then go in with ground troops. You want to take about who might do it, better turn around and look east. Putin may be the one. But don't worry, the Iranians are not far behind.

I think it's really easy to say, hey look at the russian plans to nuke every major city, but neglect to mention or think about the fact, that every nuclear power in the world, has those same plans already drawn up, should the eventuality of nuclear war arise.

How much of our knowledge regarding a governments strategic/tactical planning is in fact, nothing more than propaganda? Lets make the mass fear Russia, so they stop thinking about the widespread abuse of power at home and internationally.

One thing is certain, if we look at which country is pro actively trying to win the nuclear debate aggressively, the finger points to the U.S. and her allies.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 22, 2015, 11:27:21 PM
the finger points to the U.S. and her allies.

hmmmmmm please, do tell me more?

last i checked many allies of the US are not debating.  In fact, many of the allies pursued countries like the US to reduce their nuclear arsenal, an agreement in which Russia also agreed,,,,so far, the only 2 countries failing to reduce these numbers are in fact the US and Russia.

The reason many countries like France, Germany and the UK are pro-actively attempting to stop some countries developing nuclear weapons is for 3 main and easily identified (and identifiable) reasons..

1) They lack the fully facilities and safety precautions in which to build and store these weapons,

2) They do in fact severely lack the knowledge to build them, their scientists in the most part have a very basic comprehension of the sciences needed,

3) Obviously, these countries will want to test these weapons! This creates a huge dilemma in some cases as some countries have no suitable locations to test (unless of course they explode them miles underground which creates many other issues) which again, leads to dozens of issues...

Most countries with nuclear capabilities have had this ability since the 1940's (mid - late) where some countries (such as pakistan, India to name just a couple) where until the 1980's - 1990's restricted in actually building them..

Back to the topic! who is more likely to fire the first nuke? well......chances are nobody, in a full nuclear activation nobody can or will win, and each country has this guaranteed.....The US runs millions of daily simulations just the same as the UK, Russia, France, Germany, Canada and many other of the developed western countries..

Whilst there will be another war (this is for certain) unlike other wars, the next war will eradicate roughly 2/3 of the worlds population but it will not be a nuclear holocaust
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 22, 2015, 11:29:04 PM
Israel is the worst of the nuclear powers when it comes to that kind of thing. They might not have the plan anymore (I bet they do though), but they had plans to nuke as much of Europe and Asia as they could if it looked as if they were going to be defeated conventionally. That's right, conquer Israel with troops and they'll nuke their friends and enemies alike. Out of spite.

I do have to say that Putin might have pushed a bit hard on the nuclear threat recently, but considering the US engineered the whole Ukraine issue in the first place I suppose I can't blame him. Noone can currently take the US in a conventional war by themselves. But there is always the nuke trump card to keep America in check.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 22, 2015, 11:39:31 PM
but considering the US engineered the whole Ukraine issue in the first place I suppose I can't blame him.

obviously history lacks in your country, or just your household.  The issues in the ukraine were originally fabricated not by the US, but by Russia themselves attempting to create at first a space race (which almost bankrupted Russia) and then from 1945 - 1989 a cold war era which prompted an arms race, which in the 1980's did finally bankrupt Russia..

As a result of this many 'states' of Russia such as Georgia, Ukraine, Czech Republic (as it is now known) and many others broke away from the main USSR....The USSR ceased to exist as many of its sovereign states were no longer apart of the confederacy.

Some of these broken away countries eventually joined the EU, some, like Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Turkestan become separatist countries.

The tensions in the Chimera now, are because Putin DEMANDS 2 things:

firstly, that these countries must/should re-form as part of Russia;
Secondly, that these countries apart of the EU are too close for his liking to his country.

History shows that the issues in the east there were caused by the bankruptcy of the old USSR..

Now...as for created issues....Let us look at what Russia has created.....Well....Russia created the shitstorm that existed in Afghanistan, and look what that created...
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 22, 2015, 11:40:22 PM
hmmmmmm please, do tell me more?

last i checked many allies of the US are not debating.  In fact, many of the allies pursued countries like the US to reduce their nuclear arsenal, an agreement in which Russia also agreed,,,,so far, the only 2 countries failing to reduce these numbers are in fact the US and Russia.

The reason many countries like France, Germany and the UK are pro-actively attempting to stop some countries developing nuclear weapons is for 3 main and easily identified (and identifiable) reasons..

1) They lack the fully facilities and safety precautions in which to build and store these weapons,

2) They do in fact severely lack the knowledge to build them, their scientists in the most part have a very basic comprehension of the sciences needed,

3) Obviously, these countries will want to test these weapons! This creates a huge dilemma in some cases as some countries have no suitable locations to test (unless of course they explode them miles underground which creates many other issues) which again, leads to dozens of issues...

Most countries with nuclear capabilities have had this ability since the 1940's (mid - late) where some countries (such as pakistan, India to name just a couple) where until the 1980's - 1990's restricted in actually building them..

Back to the topic! who is more likely to fire the first nuke? well......chances are nobody, in a full nuclear activation nobody can or will win, and each country has this guaranteed.....The US runs millions of daily simulations just the same as the UK, Russia, France, Germany, Canada and many other of the developed western countries..

Whilst there will be another war (this is for certain) unlike other wars, the next war will eradicate roughly 2/3 of the worlds population but it will not be a nuclear holocaust

The point I was referring to, is that, not only has the American allies allowed the U.S. to install and maintain military bases (including missile silos) across the globe inside their own territories, but also, have embarked on joint ventures to further increase "the wests" grip in areas which were once, under soviet control.

I see that as pro-active measures used to aggressively end the nuclear debate.... and so do the Russians.

I am glad however, that you brought up the issue regarding the monopolization of this particular issue. Don't you think it's aggressive and controlling, to basically starve a nation for wanting the same things you have? The peace of mind, to feel defended? Isn't it hypocritical, to say, they're technologically backwards, so they can't build them right, when in the first place, it was the U.S. that unleashed this, as then unknown, beast onto the world?

This is without a doubt, powerful countries using their economic and military strengths to control the world as they see fit. 
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 22, 2015, 11:52:17 PM
well, if you specifically wish to discuss the issue of Iran or North Korea, then you must look at it as a whole.

The United Nations has requested, suggested and offered to both inspect facilities being developed, train and educate people involved in the project but more importantly provide vital information pertaining to the safe transport and storage of said materials.

Of course, in the media, the powers of the world have to demonstrate a hard stance given that the majority of countries (and i do believe Iran was one of those) agreed on a global stage to cease nuclear production, reduce the numbers of nuclear weapons and avert from further development/advancement of nuclear based weapons (this i believe did not include upgrades of systems capable of carrying nuclear weapons)..

Therefore, it is safe to say that Iran has had ample opportunity to make decelerations of its nuclear intent and receive experienced help in the development of its capabilities.

As far as the likes of India and Pakistan go, until a point they were countries apart of the British Empire, our Empire decreed that un-developed countries cannot develop nuclear capabilities until they are competent and capable of production, storage and maintenance--------sure, it sounds shitty, but would you prefer a country to destroy itself and its neighboring countries because it was clueless? 
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 12:06:29 AM
erm.. you've sort of derailed somewhat..

you specified part of my statement, which admittedly was vague at the time, then continued on a path I wasn't speaking about. After which, I gave you the true extent of the statement while also answering your points made.

If I'm completely frank, I think its high time, some country or group of countries, seized control of the entire world. I'm less infatuated by the idea that we need to be lied to, or believe in, this notion that it isn't happening already.

It is.. and the countries whom aren't involved significantly in the shaping of events, will resist.

The topic was however, who will be the first person to shoot nukes, we both agree on that point, no-one will. If the U.S. gets its way, they'll have the defence capabilities to nullify all of their oppositions nuclear arsenal. At which point, it'll be Game, Set & Match.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 12:50:37 AM
obviously history lacks in your country, or just your household.


Nope, but maybe that explains your delusional understanding.

The issues in the ukraine were originally fabricated not by the US, but by Russia themselves attempting to create at first a space race (which almost bankrupted Russia) and then from 1945 - 1989 a cold war era which prompted an arms race, which in the 1980's did finally bankrupt Russia..

You're confusing the Soviet Union with Russia. Russia is not the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is dead and gone.

As a result of this many 'states' of Russia such as Georgia, Ukraine, Czech Republic (as it is now known) and many others broke away from the main USSR....The USSR ceased to exist as many of its sovereign states were no longer apart of the confederacy.

Since you didn't notice, Russia became a democracy immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was not a democracy.

Some of these broken away countries eventually joined the EU, some, like Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Turkestan become separatist countries.

Irrelevant.

The tensions in the Chimera now, are because Putin DEMANDS 2 things:

No. The issue with Ukraine is that the Americans supported an extreme right wing group sufficiently to topple the rightful elected government of Ukraine, and Russia refused to accept it.

firstly, that these countries must/should re-form as part of Russia;

Ridiculous. Russia could take them by force at any time. The US couldn't do shit about it.

Secondly, that these countries apart of the EU are too close for his liking to his country.

The government of Ukraine is an American instituted puppet. Russia would have to be both stupid and suicidal to accept the obvious American interference.

History shows that the issues in the east there were caused by the bankruptcy of the old USSR..

No, history shows that the adoption of democracy in a superpower that had too many corrupt officials in positions of power was an incredibly bad move.

Now...as for created issues....Let us look at what Russia has created.....Well....Russia created the shitstorm that existed in Afghanistan, and look what that created...

Russia didn't start Afghanistan issues, the US did by arming and training people who hated them as much as they hated the Russians. The should have left Russia alone. The locals probably would have beat them anyway.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 12:59:46 AM
Russia didn't start Afghanistan issues, the US did by arming and training people who hated them as much as they hated the Russians. The should have left Russia alone. The locals probably would have beat them anyway.

Actually, you have to take your history books back even further to find the root cause of Islamic extremism, it pre-dates the crusades, which incidentally pre-dates the U.S. and U.S.S.R
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 02:05:25 AM
Well yeah, I was more talking about recently. The ROOT cause of religious extremism is almost always the religion itself. If it weren't for the christians being shackled by society the last few hundred years they'd be exactly the same as the muslims right now. It wouldn't even take them a year to sink to barbarism if we let them.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 02:44:46 AM
The ROOT cause of religious extremism is almost always the religion itself.

I prefer to think of it as, the root cause of any extremism is belief itself. Notable examples of this are the new breed of believers, Atheists, particularly those that follow science. It's easy to fool oneself into accepting what we can "measure" with our primitive senses, as fact. They've even got a cop out like religion; God works in mysterious way, or, Science is under constant review.

How can people fervently and passionately persecute non-believers as both do, for things which cannot be proven or may be disproved at some later point?

yeah anyways.. belief sucks.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 23, 2015, 03:43:04 AM
The U.S. military has always taken a reactionary stance with her nuclear arsenal. Look up the Soviet tactics for the Cold War. Their plan was to bomb every major city in Western Europe with a tactical nuke. And then go in with ground troops. You want to take about who might do it, better turn around and look east. Putin may be the one. But don't worry, the Iranians are not far behind.

this opinion is a product of disinformation. If I can draw your attention back to the days of the cold war and the soviet union, there was an instance where the US was in rage at the audacity of the soviet union in constructing a defensive missile shield to intercept nukes coming from the west. The US responded to this  supposed aggressive move by the soviet union, even though it was purely defensive, by creating missiles which broke up into several other missile mid flight in order to penetrate the defensive shield. Only in the US could this sort of thinking be considered reasonable and the soviet union considered the aggressors.

As far as your Putin comment goes, this is pure fiction and so is your comment about Iran. The only thing Putin is interested in is protecting Russia's own borders from US encroachment under the guise NATO. Even as we speak the US are trying to destabilise Russia via government funded NGOs, just like they did in Ukraine. The problem with this strategy, however, is that Putin is 10 steps ahead of the current US administration so I wouldn't be expecting to see Vic Nuland handing out cookies on red square any time soon.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 23, 2015, 03:56:27 AM


The tensions in the Chimera now, are because Putin DEMANDS 2 things:



I presume you are referring to Crimea and I must point out that this opinion is also based on disinformation. There is no tension in Crimea. Crimeans actually voted both democratically and overwhelmingly to join the Russian Federation. They did so because they refused to recognise the US installed government following the US sponsored coup in Kiev and instead opted for the security and stability of the Russian federation. If you checked your facts rather than accepting CNN propaganda, you would know that the vast majority of the crimea population actually are Russian and not Ukrainian. The administration of the Crimean peninsular was handed over to Kiev by Krushkov (who himself was Ukrainian) whilst he was drunk.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 06:59:23 AM
I prefer to think of it as, the root cause of any extremism is belief itself. Notable examples of this are the new breed of believers, Atheists, particularly those that follow science. It's easy to fool oneself into accepting what we can "measure" with our primitive senses, as fact. They've even got a cop out like religion; God works in mysterious way, or, Science is under constant review.

How can people fervently and passionately persecute non-believers as both do, for things which cannot be proven or may be disproved at some later point?

yeah anyways.. belief sucks.

Meh, atheists have been persecuted for centuries. It's only natural there'd be a blowback once they started realising how common the lack of belief in a god actually is (and atheism is simply a lack of belief, not a belief in and of itself).
Besides, at least science works. Religion has rarely been the source of a solution to a problem.
Science also doesn't make moral judgements. The biggest religions today are literally told to kill unbelievers, heretics, and followers of other faiths. Any atheist who goes down that road had to come up with it themselves, and probably has justification for it (that doesn't make it right, but it is hardly surprising) that is far superior than words in a book written thousands of years ago.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on July 23, 2015, 10:03:52 AM
@Grace,

The technology of multiple re-entry vehicles was already in use by the Soviets at that time. MIRV's (multiple independent re-entry vehicles). The Soviets had already deployed this technology. And that still does not change the U.S. stance. They simply developed a system to get around the Soviet defenses should the U.S. have to launch AFTER the Soviets had already done so. No misinformation. First hand knowledge.
We have steadily reduced our nuclear arsenal over the last 30 years. Many of the ICBM installations during my time in the military are long gone. We do not even use our most capable delivery platform, the Peacekeeper missile, due to the SALT agreements. Yet the Russians still use the R-36M missile. It is the largest ICBM in the world. And for reference that is twice the size of what a Peacekeeper was able to carry.
Putin is an old throw back. He longs for the glory days of a Soviet Empire. Now I will not argue that he has concern for NATO incursion close to his former satellites. We did not honor our gentlemanly agreement about not taking those countries into NATO. But he is dangerous. How often is he going to do fly by's over western countries? That was quite an incident over England not to long ago. The regular news barely even scratched the surface of what really went on.
And don't turn a blind eye to Iran. That will be a hot bed in the near future. They attempted to build nukes in the 80's. What makes you think they will not try again?
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 23, 2015, 11:36:58 AM
@Grace,

The technology of multiple re-entry vehicles was already in use by the Soviets at that time. MIRV's (multiple independent re-entry vehicles). The Soviets had already deployed this technology. And that still does not change the U.S. stance. They simply developed a system to get around the Soviet defenses should the U.S. have to launch AFTER the Soviets had already done so. No misinformation. First hand knowledge.
We have steadily reduced our nuclear arsenal over the last 30 years. Many of the ICBM installations during my time in the military are long gone. We do not even use our most capable delivery platform, the Peacekeeper missile, due to the SALT agreements. Yet the Russians still use the R-36M missile. It is the largest ICBM in the world. And for reference that is twice the size of what a Peacekeeper was able to carry.
Putin is an old throw back. He longs for the glory days of a Soviet Empire. Now I will not argue that he has concern for NATO incursion close to his former satellites. We did not honor our gentlemanly agreement about not taking those countries into NATO. But he is dangerous. How often is he going to do fly by's over western countries? That was quite an incident over England not to long ago. The regular news barely even scratched the surface of what really went on.
And don't turn a blind eye to Iran. That will be a hot bed in the near future. They attempted to build nukes in the 80's. What makes you think they will not try again?

I was taking you half seriously until you got up to the point where you said that Putin was an old throw back who longs for the days of the soviet union. This is a classic case of self projection coming from those in the US who feel they have some warped sense of entitlement to the natural resources of the Russian federation. Putin himself is actually more of a modern pragmatist leader whose policies reflect the times and dynamics of the modern world. Granted, he is ex KGB but so what? his foreign policies are effective in drawing a line for US imperialism (hint: this is why they want him out of the way) and his domestic position is reflected in his approval ratings of 89%

The news which barely scratches the surface is the news which usually conflicts with US foreign policy. Take MH17, for example. As soon as this hit the news, instantly, it was Russia, it was Putin, he may have even fired the missile himself from his own bedroom window blah blah yap yap and all kinds of unsubstanciated bs and all this was in spite of the fact that most evidence actually pointed toward the Ukrainian side not only firing this missile, but actually sending the plane through a corridor whci took it directly over a war zone. Russian intelligence pointed to a US satellite in direct orbit over the incident at the time, yet no image was ever made public. Why would you think this is the case?

before you ask yourself how often he will be doing fly bys over western countries, first ask yourself for how long western countries will be doing fly bys around Russian territory. This is normal activity which most countries with an air force engage in. Nothing unusual here except the this activity is only reported from one side with the context eliminated. Speaking of incidents, why don't you look up the Donald cook incident in the black sea
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 12:19:48 PM
political debates about political leaders and military ideals, stances actions and agreements of western worlds and Russia cannot be argued on a forum where you have multiple pro-Russians..

I am neither pro nor anti Russia, but Grace.....you really do need to step back and listen to what people are talking about in regards the military situation....many folks have served in the forces and are from Europe...we know without doubt the amount and type of incursions that occur daily by Russia..

It is also absurd for you to suggest Putin is a modern leader.....seriously??? you really know nothing....Putin is an ex KGB officer who was raised on the old USSR ideologies....His actions, where you besmirch them in Ukraine, lead me to believe that you do not understand that much...

Putin invaded and re-took control of Georgia, Georgia however was not apart of the EU/Europe and therefore the UN/NATO had no obligation to do anything about it...

Ukraine is vastly different as it chose, as a country to become apart of the EU..  Now...whilst people argue over semantics about voting in Ukraine, you should clearly identify with history and FACT....only the Eastern part of Ukraine wanted to annex Ukraine and re-form as part of Russia, and even that Eastern part isn't fully supportive of the idea..

The issue is that the people of Ukraine wished to have closer ties with Russia (some Ukraine families are separated with parts living in Ukraine and parts living in Russia) but not wanting to reform as part of Russia.  Ukraine had themselves as a country opted for a democratic way of life (voting etc) and they decided that the official they elected as leader was no longer acting in the best interest of the people or the country.  Once a revolution occurred, do you not find it funny how the annexed leader fled to Russia and Putin?

Whilst acceptance has to be made in regards to a revolution that in the democratic world, this doesn't enforce the removal of the leader from office....The annexed leader of Ukraine refuses to return to Ukraine and remains hiding in Russia so that he cannot be held accountable and removed from office in an official and proper manner..

As for the other crap you spurt out, please do not tell me what you think you know about incursions or how long these incursions have been occurring.....In my years as a member of the RAF on the QRA i have a very good and more importantly REALISTIC knowledge which is based yet again on 100% fact as to the amount, type and location of countless THOUSANDS of incursions by the Russians..

In fact grace, due to disinformation, you and millions/billions of other people really have no idea how close it gets sometimes to things escalating and people dieing 
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 12:22:11 PM
Meh, atheists have been persecuted for centuries. It's only natural there'd be a blowback once they started realising how common the lack of belief in a god actually is (and atheism is simply a lack of belief, not a belief in and of itself).
Besides, at least science works. Religion has rarely been the source of a solution to a problem.
Science also doesn't make moral judgements. The biggest religions today are literally told to kill unbelievers, heretics, and followers of other faiths. Any atheist who goes down that road had to come up with it themselves, and probably has justification for it (that doesn't make it right, but it is hardly surprising) that is far superior than words in a book written thousands of years ago.

ahh dude.. i've just woken up after only a few hours sleep, but even i can spot the glaringly obvious lack of awareness which allowed this post to be believed enough to post. Science really doesnt work.. oh it's hit and miss strategy of never giving up sometimes allows us glimpses into things we still dont comprehend. but science is based on and came from books written thousands of years ago :P

I may come back to this and actually pull apart your statement because, believe me, you really should think about it a little more.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 01:18:16 PM
political debates about political leaders and military ideals, stances actions and agreements of western worlds and Russia cannot be argued on a forum where you have multiple pro-Russians..

You may as well have just called us all "commie ba**ards" and be done with it, just because we see evidence to suggest Russia is the entrenched victim of global politics, doesn't mean we're pro Russia. It means we have critical common sense.

I am neither pro nor anti Russia, but Grace.....you really do need to step back and listen to what people are talking about in regards the military situation....many folks have served in the forces and are from Europe...we know without doubt the amount and type of incursions that occur daily by Russia..

Incursions, the same style of incursions that American, English, Chinese, French (the list goes on) have done, and do still? I mean seriously, what's not to love about spy drones flying over your major cities right?

It is also absurd for you to suggest Putin is a modern leader.....seriously??? you really know nothing....Putin is an ex KGB officer who was raised on the old USSR ideologies....His actions, where you besmirch them in Ukraine, lead me to believe that you do not understand that much...

My dad used to beat me, does that mean people will call me a child beater despite my actions as an adult?

Putin invaded and re-took control of Georgia, Georgia however was not apart of the EU/Europe and therefore the UN/NATO had no obligation to do anything about it...

This was a stage event, which the president of Georgia, was held accountable for.. the ramifications of which, HELPED U.S. and allies goals into bringing more countries into NATO.. please step outside your comforting blanket and do some research before you spout this drivel

Ukraine is vastly different as it chose, as a country to become apart of the EU..  Now...whilst people argue over semantics about voting in Ukraine, you should clearly identify with history and FACT....only the Eastern part of Ukraine wanted to annex Ukraine and re-form as part of Russia, and even that Eastern part isn't fully supportive of the idea..

Proof in the pudding... another staged event, to show the EU supports its members. It's all manipulation, one sides does one thing, which leaves the other sides no alternative but either react or become weakened. Just as another point, show me an entire body of people that is full supportive of any idea and I'll show you mass hypnosis.

In my years as a member of the RAF on the QRA i have a very good and more importantly REALISTIC knowledge which is based yet again on 100% fact as to the amount, type and location of countless THOUSANDS of incursions by the Russians..

In fact grace, due to disinformation, you and millions/billions of other people really have no idea how close it gets sometimes to things escalating and people dieing 

So, let me get this straight.. It's O.K. for the U.S. and her allies to slowly but surely take over the world, country by country, adding military bases and such likes in all of them with the promise of aid. But, it's not O.K. for a Russian Ship or plane to enter our space? It's O.K. for spy planes, which have been shot down and proven to be in use, to gather intelligence, but, the Russians have to make do with cold war antiques?

If anyone is raising the heat to boiling, I'd have to say it's the U.S. and her allies. Not only are they doing it themselves, but then they cry when others do it back as a reaction to those incursions.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 01:32:24 PM
thing is, when you have an OPINION on matters like this, you have to bend over, take it and shove it where the sun doesn't shine....

An opinion means nothing based on actual factual evidence..  I do like however how you deliberately tried to troll my entire post there, but intentionally left no comments based on the fact that i can 100% guarantee about the number, type and location of incursions..

that swanny, is what you call trolling...you can't argue against absolute fact, so you make a dozen aspersions about other things.


Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 01:36:15 PM
A person with a decisive and clinical mind set in thinking (as you certainly try to indicate you do) would certainly not look at things and suggest they are 'staged events'..

if that is what you believe then you obviously have an outright invalid opinion as you hold no value to human life in any form.

let me bring this into a fictional sense for you....what is going on in Russia right now is a bit like what it is going on with you are newly 'purchased' account...

You (Russia) have all these advancements, all the hardware, power and capability and then you go turn around and use it players who can't really do nothing about it (Ukraine, Georgia, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan-----to name just a few states Russia has BULLIED) 
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 01:41:31 PM
Biggest issue Russia faces right now, is that they are pissing in the yards of the big boys (you know...the ones you tend to avoid) and that this boys not only have the capability to defend themselves (and others) but are more than capable of a first strike...

Why is Ukraine such an importance?  Well, simply because it is a country which opted to join the UN and Nato and become (or at least try) a EU member state..

Wars in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan were of no general audience with the world as they were not publicized as other wars are...they were known about.....just not made daily information
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 01:43:14 PM
wow.. you really should take a look in the mirror.. what you did, was exactly what you're saying i did.. mine wasnt full of opinion.. it was factual.

I don't argue that the Russians make incursions, because I'm not stupid enough to think they wouldn't or shouldn't. I argued the point that says, WE DO IT MORE REGULARLY THAN THEY EVER WILL. How come you didnt answer that? How come every time i make a point, you deftly swerve?

How come as soon as your points are challenged with information (which can be verified) you suddenly start getting personal?

Kru, you're not who you say you are. 15 years scrubbing oil off a plane doesn't make you army intelligence.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 01:57:56 PM
here, I just pulled this off a site, I'm sure we can find counterpoints or more to substantiate either side.. but, I did watch this entire conflict, from start to finish, not on T.V. but over the internet, constantly going from source to source seeing the differing opinions and statements of fact..

"Georgian forces had responded to attacks by secessionists in South Ossetia, an ethnic enclave in northern Georgia, by pummeling civilian areas in the region's capital, Tskhinvali, and seeking to retake the territory by force. Moscow, which had supported the province's secessionist government for more than a decade, retaliated with a full-scale invasion, sending aircraft and armored columns into South Ossetia and targeting key military and transport centers inside Georgia proper. Russia also beefed up its military presence in Abkhazia, another secessionist province, in the northwestern corner of the country. Russian troops had been present in both enclaves as peacekeepers, deployed with Georgia's consent 15 years earlier. When the Georgian attack on South Ossetia killed Russian soldiers and threatened the fragile status quo, Moscow intervened with lightning speed. "
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 02:01:28 PM
ok ok....there is much i could i could say, but i enjoy many of the freedoms i have!

reason i did not respond to your statement of incursions into Russia, is simply because these do not happen by any NATO/UN forces or countries apart of those organisations...When i speak of incursions, i specifically mean crossing into that countries sovereign territory.  As for your statement these happen 'more regularly' i would advise you seriously go do research and stop speaking your opinion as fact!

In the last 12 months, there have been more than 2 dozen recorded incursion over the UK, and when i say incursion i mean entering UK sovereign territory. An incursion is derived by meaning an unplanned or un-agreed flight path or entry into areas of interst, waters, airspace or land..

*edit*
The QRA located at 2 separate airbases are scrambled on a daily basis to intercept Russian bombers and other aircraft as well as first intercept on Russian military shipping.  The Royal Navy intercepts and escorts Russian shipping 2 - 3 times per week.  Whilst some Russian movements is scheduled this only accounts for a rough 5% of total alerts made to the RAF and RN.  These intercepts which occur DAILY are outside of nation sovereign territory and therefore classified as 'international' flight paths/waters.

It is absolutely no secret that the UN/NATO countries or Russia for that matter fly, sail and perform exercises close to a nations territory, but that is simply each and every nation flexing their muscle.

Sure, the US during the cold war era did incur on and over Russia, just as Russia did with around 22 other countries..

As for China (as you mentioned that earlier) they have more or less nothing to do with this current situation, China spy on everyone...which is funny, considering you referred to the US and 'her' allies because the funny thing was, China WAS an ally..

More over, by referring your statement as the 'US and 'her' allies, you seem to be solely pointing the derogatory finger at the United States.

Now, unlike the majority of people, i do not take my information from the UK media sites or US media sites unless i can correlate this.  I also read the Russian news on events to formulate an equal and unbiased chain of actions and events....

I don't simply sit there and say...'yep, Russia got it bad, but it's not all their fault'
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 02:03:08 PM
here, I just pulled this off a site, I'm sure we can find counterpoints or more to substantiate either side.. but, I did watch this entire conflict, from start to finish, not on T.V. but over the internet, constantly going from source to source seeing the differing opinions and statements of fact..

lmao...i just said exactly the same thing :)

I never trust what i can't see without my own eyes, and if i have to rely on other sources i always at other media sources and not just the obvious ones
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 23, 2015, 02:10:55 PM
thing is, when you have an OPINION on matters like this, you have to bend over, take it and shove it where the sun doesn't shine....

An opinion means nothing based on actual factual evidence..  I do like however how you deliberately tried to troll my entire post there, but intentionally left no comments based on the fact that i can 100% guarantee about the number, type and location of incursions..

that swanny, is what you call trolling...you can't argue against absolute fact, so you make a dozen aspersions about other things.

Kru, are you here to reclaim your title as the most idiotic poster on the forum? I don't think anyone is disputing incursions made by Russia, but simply pointing out that this works both ways and is normal practice on both sides. however, you are only given one side of the picture in order to influence your perception to see Putin as the bogey man.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 02:12:10 PM
reason i did not respond to your statement of incursions into Russia, is simply because these do not happen by any NATO/UN forces or countries apart of those organisations...When i speak of incursions, i specifically mean crossing into that countries sovereign territory.  As for your statement these happen 'more regularly' i would advise you seriously go do research and stop speaking your opinion as fact!

In the last 12 months, there have been more than 2 dozen recorded incursion over the UK, and when i say incursion i mean entering UK sovereign territory. An incursion is derived by meaning an unplanned or un-agreed flight path or entry into areas of interst, waters, airspace or land..

It is absolutely no secret that the UN/NATO countries or Russia for that matter fly, sail and perform exercises close to a nations territory, but that is simply each and every nation flexing their muscle.

Sure, the US during the cold war era did incur on and over Russia, just as Russia did with around 22 other countries..

As for China (as you mentioned that earlier) they have more or less nothing to do with this current situation, China spy on everyone...which is funny, considering you referred to the US and 'her' allies because the funny thing was, China WAS an ally..

More over, by referring your statement as the 'US and 'her' allies, you seem to be solely pointing the derogatory finger at the United States.

Now, unlike the majority of people, i do not take my information from the UK media sites or US media sites unless i can correlate this.  I also read the Russian news on events to formulate an equal and unbiased chain of actions and events....

I don't simply sit there and say...'yep, Russia got it bad, but it's not all their fault'

So as long as you don't get caught it doesn't matter?

It is a matter of fact, that the U.S. does operate spy drones over other countries sovereign territories.. (I'm not going to speak about her allies here, because I don't have proof of that.) I'm quite sure the Iranians never agreed to have drones with imaging capabilities flying over their country.

The excuses that come afterwards is just political nonsense, anyone with half a brain can see that, yep they got caught nope they wont admit it. This is happening NOW every day, you talk about 2 dozen occurrences but completely neglect to mention the ongoing habitual breaches in international law. (not to mention the cyber attacks, but that's another story)

The reason I say the U.S. and her allies, is because by an large we're in it together, whether the plane gets shot down with stars and stripes or union jacks (yes i know we use circles) painted on them is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 23, 2015, 02:13:17 PM
Kru, you're not who you say you are. 15 years scrubbing oil off a plane doesn't make you army intelligence.
 

 ;D
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 02:14:38 PM
Kru, are you here to reclaim your title as the most idiotic poster on the forum? I don't think anyone is disputing incursions made by Russia, but simply pointing out that this works both ways and is normal practice on both sides. however, you are only given one side of the picture in order to influence your perception to see Putin as the bogey man.

go learn about what exactly an incursion is you dimwit
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 02:19:39 PM
well....it is true to say that the UK have only  had spy plane capability (being the MQ9-reaper) for roughly 18 months in a fully operational aspect (and not many of them to say that)

One thing about these incursions everyone is so adamant on, as well as negating  is the fact that the UK, US, China, Germany have some of the most advanced and sophisticated satellites in orbit.  Not to mention that Germany actually has some of the most precise and high deff scanner equipment (yes, all pointed at Russia's doorstep)

I do not, and have never tried to state that there is not a game of cat and mouse that occurs between Russia and the West..

However...when i refer to an incursion, i make specific reference to the Russians flowing a nuclear capable bomber up the Cornish main land
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 02:26:19 PM
Kru, you're not who you say you are. 15 years scrubbing oil off a plane doesn't make you army intelligence.

lol....if you were not so cynical you would kinda a funny....for a second

just in that single sentence you made no less 5 assumption

but that's ok.....i don't have to dream, i don't have to be glued to the internet to know and understand how the real world actually works
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 02:28:17 PM
well....it is true to say that the UK have only  had spy plane capability (being the MQ9-reaper) for roughly 18 months in a fully operational aspect (and not many of them to say that)

One thing about these incursions everyone is so adamant on, as well as negating  is the fact that the UK, US, China, Germany have some of the most advanced and sophisticated satellites in orbit.  Not to mention that Germany actually has some of the most precise and high deff scanner equipment (yes, all pointed at Russia's doorstep)

I do not, and have never tried to state that there is not a game of cat and mouse that occurs between Russia and the West..

However...when i refer to an incursion, i make specific reference to the Russians flowing a nuclear capable bomber up the Cornish main land

You should use google, there has been an awful lot worse than that :D

But, jokes aside, no not you kru, you stay right where you are the punchline hasn't come yet ;)

hehe.. anyways.. as I was saying, We've embraced the new democratic Russia, they're part of the G8 group of industrialised nations, we have openly engaged them in both economic and military discussions and operations.. If there wasn't a subversive plot, why is it, these "incursions" mean soo much?

If a friend of mine walked my girlfriend home, would i declare war, or say thanks bud
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 02:36:39 PM

If a friend of mine walked my girlfriend home, would i declare war, or say thanks bud

but then is your friend likely to drop a bomb on her?  likely to sacrifice so little to get what he wants?...not to be rude, b ut sadly a poor description.....you friend runs the risk of alienating a single person, having a fight.....there is no risk of life..

If you wish to say 'thanks' to the Russians for flying through UK airspace with nuclear bombers you go right ahead......frankly, that scares the shit out of me and almost everyone else i know.  A lot is yet to be written, but it is for sure that the actions of Russia are far more aggressive (and that's yet another fact) than the actions against them.

i cannot directly speak from fact past 2002, but i can assure you that between 1997 - 2002 QRA were dispatched at least once daily to intercept 'foreign aircraft' (as that is the official term).

You have stated it in  posts though, Russia is not really the country to be watching and/or worried about.....they are simply flexing their muscles against the West to say...'hey look at us....we're here and we're back'

the 2/3 countries i would be much worried about is China, Iran and NK
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 02:53:20 PM
but then is your friend likely to drop a bomb on her?  likely to sacrifice so little to get what he wants?...not to be rude, b ut sadly a poor description.....you friend runs the risk of alienating a single person, having a fight.....there is no risk of life..

If you wish to say 'thanks' to the Russians for flying through UK airspace with nuclear bombers you go right ahead......frankly, that scares the shit out of me and almost everyone else i know.  A lot is yet to be written, but it is for sure that the actions of Russia are far more aggressive (and that's yet another fact) than the actions against them.

i cannot directly speak from fact past 2002, but i can assure you that between 1997 - 2002 QRA were dispatched at least once daily to intercept 'foreign aircraft' (as that is the official term).

You have stated it in  posts though, Russia is not really the country to be watching and/or worried about.....they are simply flexing their muscles against the West to say...'hey look at us....we're here and we're back'

the 2/3 countries i would be much worried about is China, Iran and NK

Your assumption ouch.. If you've ever seen a mental health patient with an adrenal reaction get angry you'll know that "no risk of life" isn't true, but it was just a simpler version of the same truth. If we're all friends, why be so worried? A well used way of thinking, regarding this issue, is that, people who don't trust often can't be trusted themselves.. I'm not a big subscriber to this idea, but I'm biased :D

Well, there's the point man.. maybe at an unconscious level you understand the threat more clearly than this feeble display of national pride gives credit for.

Lets take that back to the earlier discussion and add a little conjecture for good measure...

We both agreed earlier, that no-one would win a nuclear war and no-one would press the trigger to start it. We've also had stated that we have diplomatic relations with Russia and they have been co-operative in global events.

To me it seems an irrational fear, then to say and I quote "scares the shit out of me", one based on prejudice from an era gone by.

If this is the level of understanding, then I state categorically that Russia is not a problem in the slightest, because they've red, white and blue in their national flag (I wonder how much of that is truth or jest at times.)

As for immediate threats, we only have threats to our goals. The rest of the world knows, we're in control, they just want to keep their homes.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 03:43:01 PM
sort of...

(now i can use some of my training :D )

It is a rational fear, not sure how you can conclude it is irrational.  It is rational for a number of reasons (i'll try to quickly them) but it is based on an irrational concept, a concept which has both proof and context.

so...now you are wondering why it is a rational fear?!?

firstly, lets just say i served and leave it at that (some will understand)

secondly, i  have seen up close and personal with both US and Russian military hardware...and i assure you, they are a combination of deadly, destructive and very accurate..

thirdly (albeit not Russia so i grant that) nuclear weapons (at a much lower grade than  compared to today) have been used in anger and the effectiveness of them is well documented in both death, destruction and forcing the other side to surrender.

finally, no military doubles or triples its annual budget for defence overnight then requests modifications to be made without significant reason.....more over, these occurs in conjunction (with the UK) embarking on major upgrades to its own military whilst reducing numbers (carriers, type 45's etc etc)..

It is irrational based on the fact:

1. Russia would have used nukes in the past.
2. everyone has nukes, so a first strike offensive is irrelevant.
3. should a first strike be launched, counter strikes consisting of 2 phases would be launched, the second of these strikes would decimate 2/3 of the globe, the first would aim to destroy any inbound IBCM's before they even re-entered the atmosphere.

sometimes it is true, that the enemy of my enemy is my friend....My worry with Russia is that whilst Putin wants what is best for Russia, he is embarking on his path with the old style USSR ideals in mind....after all...you do not get to be a high ranked KGB officer without significant indoctrination.

Physically (if you want to look at it from this stand point) Russian is the biggest problem and the most/more likely to tip the scales and begin/start a new WW....However, whilst Russia is very blatant, loud and noisy about what it is doing it only presents 'some'  serious and significant concern....

China on the other hand are becoming an emerging risk for a number of reasons.....
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 04:12:33 PM
sort of...

It is a rational fear, not sure how you can conclude it is irrational.  It is rational for a number of reasons (i'll try to quickly them) but it is based on an irrational concept, a concept which has both proof and context.

so...now you are wondering why it is a rational fear?!?

O.K. I'm cutting your post a little to save space on the page and stop any interested parties from having to read over and over again, but, with the 4 reasons you gave, I don't see (perhaps my own ignorance, but I'm willing to wager not) a good reason to fear a Russian bomber given the current circumstances, unless of course, we're planning or have already provoked them, perhaps my friend decided to try and grope my girlfriend?

It is irrational based on the fact:

Now, this is where I'm seriously having trouble following you... You say its a rational fear, but give elements to the counterpoint? But, you've yet to add in anything regarding our mutually held opinion that it'll never happen. Yes we've seen the devastation caused, yes we know we'll all die if we go nuclear in war-time. That is why it's irrational to fear a nuclear bomber. Not only that, but also, the U.S. also have a defence grid of anti-warhead silos based in countries all over the world. This is why the Russians come flying/sailing around our borders.. We've done it to them.. just in a nice 2-faced diplomatic ass funking kinda way.

sometimes it is true, that the enemy of my enemy is my friend....My worry with Russia is that whilst Putin wants what is best for Russia, he is embarking on his path with the old style USSR ideals in mind....after all...you do not get to be a high ranked KGB officer without significant indoctrination.

I'm quite sure, prolonged service in any regime, governmental office etc etc, will "indoctrinate" a person in some fashion or another.. just look at nationalism as a prime example of this, we're born into a country, we're raised to believe, think, judge and behave a certain way purely because of where we live, we become prideful of that and our ability to be the best (dya like that?? not subtle enough?) which then produces the adverse effect of; resenting, damning, avoiding, isolating, anything that doesn't follow the guidelines.

Physically (if you want to look at it from this stand point) Russian is the biggest problem and the most/more likely to tip the scales and begin/start a new WW....However, whilst Russia is very blatant, loud and noisy about what it is doing it only presents 'some'  serious and significant concern....

I have a conspiracy theory of my own about this.. but its long and I don't want to take this completely off topic, but needless to say, I think the Russians are not a threat, with a little more information I'd go out on a limb and say they're actually partners of ours.

China on the other hand are becoming an emerging risk for a number of reasons.....

There are several obstacles in our path to N.W.O. (please don't confuse this with the idea that some secret organisation is working towards world domination and will sacrifice your babies, I just donned the term because it fits, a new world order with one governing body) China is definitely one of them, how much so I'm unsure of, you could say they're already being primed for utter collapse, given the current financial situations.

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 04:36:36 PM
i had already depicted the exact reason you should fear a Russian bomber. The Russian bombers exploiting UK airspace and are guilty of incursions into our airspace are the old TU-95's, which were specifically designed for degradation in the assumption of air attack in order to deliver a nuclear pay load to its target, or as close as possible.  This of course shows serious concerns of a nations air defence as well...

to better understand something, which i described...an irrational fear of something rational...

spiders.....there are thousands of species of spiders known to man...the majority are harmless to us, some will cause problems and some will kill you.

It is rational to fear some spiders, as they can kill you, but the same fear of a common garden wolf spider is pretty irrational.

Therefore, it is pretty rational to be worried about what 'could' happen, but irrational to outright believe it will.

The rational fear (based on human history) is that nations will go to war over the smallest and silliest of things.  It is also rational to look back and see that the US dropped 3 nuclear bombs.

The irrational fear is thinking and believing that this is what countries want, and that should war ever break out we will all be using nuclear bombs.

There is a huge difference in indoctrination and institutionalism, what you refer to there is the later. 
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 04:52:34 PM
oh wow.. dude, just because you said it and I do like to be right, I went and looked those 2 words up.. (I did already know, but, I wanted to be sure before calling you a fool).

You're a fool. Please go look them up yourself. (I made it easier for you to understand, I took the word institution out)

As for the irrational fear .. There is absolutely no reason to fear something, which you've already stated yourself will never happen. Could happen? Are you really taking this somewhat serious topic and trivialising it with fairy tales?

Here's the point, you just argued that it will never happen and it could happen in the same damn post..

That's irrational my friend, I think you need to work on your thoughts and your beliefs, there's some interference, probably through your own indoctrination within our services.

Your logical mind sees the truth that it'll never happen, but your belief system has been indoctrinated into fearing threats from Russians, even against your own better judgement.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 06:03:01 PM
....just because something will never happen doesn't make the fear any less real..but if you refuse to accept that, then it is obvious you do have some significant issues of your own.

The fact that we accept things are unlikey and will possibly never happen doesn't mean that at the same these things are impossible (but obviously for you, having a discussion with somebody who actually knows a thing is too much for you)


and yes, they is a huge difference between indoctrinated and institutionalised, of that i can outright assure you and again, if you do not understand the difference then that is your issue (i can't be bothered explaining the difference)-----In fact, i used the context of words 100% accuratley, in that both indoctrination and institutionalism are very real and occur all around you....thankfully, i understand the difference the between the 2 and more, undertsand the application of them in this context.

but least to say, you are meaning then that the NK people are institutionalised rather than indoctrinated

but i am very glad you googled them and still get it wrong and failed to understand the key differences...however, you were absolutely 100% spot on in the fact Putin was indoctrinated, shame you obviously don't understand the meaning through context

 i would also be interested in hearing how you think, feel and came to the conclusion of myself being indoctrinated into fearing Russians?
I mean.....i do not come from a country which used an anti communism propaganda machine, i have nobody in my family that convinced me the Russians were bad..

Obviously, where you simply spend time trolling the Russians media sites, you have become somewhat indoctrinated yourself into believing that the Russians pose or offer no real threat to the world
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 06:15:02 PM
Here we go.. now you have absolutely no point other than try to argue something you'd already got wrong..

This is the point I opt out of conversing with fools..

No-one was arguing that there is a difference between those 2 words.. ONLY YOU

But your "application" to this scenario or rather my statement, is so absurdly wrong it's not even funny.. but what makes it funny.. is that you later disprove your own statement..

If putin can be indoctrinated, even while being within an institution, and you can see the difference there.. HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE WITHIN MY STATEMENT? Is it the negative connotations included with the word, during your own indoctrination perhaps?

or maybe its simpler still.. denial. You wont accept rational argument, even when you made it, when it conflicts with your firmly held beliefs.

The definition of irrational fears -

1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.

2. An irrational fear is a type of fear that an individual experiences that does not necessarily have any basis behind it.

I havent spoken about NK people at all.. don't know where you came up with that idea.

This is my last message.. fret all you like dude.. maybe one day you'll look back on this conversation and realise I was right, I hope for your sake you do.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on July 23, 2015, 06:54:25 PM
Actually from the news sources that I get my info from (as well as some military) were stating almost immediately that it looked like it was the on the Ukraine side that took down the airliner. So don't always say 'everybody'. Many of us here in the States have a pretty good idea what happened.
And in regards to the fly overs. Yes the States do it also. Big difference is....we keep our transponders ON. They can see us coming from miles away. They hide with their transponders off and reek havoc. The incident near Heathrow nearly turned into a major disaster.
And I think kru summed up Putin pretty well. All I will add is, funny how all his opposition tends to end up dead.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 23, 2015, 06:57:25 PM
you are making yourself look stupid, Kru, as always. Swan, you make some excellent points and I am following with interest. However, one point I will contend with is that there may be a risk, though not the risk which Kru imagines. Russia would never launch a nuclear strike first. Whether or not the US would is still an open question. If their foreign policy is anything to go by, along with their contempt for the sovereign integrity of other nations, then it has to be considered a possibility that the US would initiate a nuclear war. As stupid as this would be for them on their part and tragic for everyone else, they were actually toying with the idea of whether or not they could win a nuclear war with Russia during the Cuban missile crisis. Cool heads prevailed at the time, though one area in particular which sets Russia apart from the US in this respect is that foreign policy is dictated by the commander in chief and not lobby groups or Tel Aviv and wall street.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 23, 2015, 07:03:11 PM
Actually from the news sources that I get my info from (as well as some military) were stating almost immediately that it looked like it was the on the Ukraine side that took down the airliner. So don't always say 'everybody'. Many of us here in the States have a pretty good idea what happened.
And in regards to the fly overs. Yes the States do it also. Big difference is....we keep our transponders ON. They can see us coming from miles away. They hide with their transponders off and reek havoc. The incident near Heathrow nearly turned into a major disaster.
And I think kru summed up Putin pretty well. All I will add is, funny how all his opposition tends to end up dead.

It is also funny how most of his opposition has ties to the US.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 07:28:12 PM
political debates about political leaders and military ideals, stances actions and agreements of western worlds and Russia cannot be argued on a forum where you have multiple pro-Russians..

News flash: It isn't a debate when everyone is anti-Russia. ::)

I'm not pro Russia, but I'm not pro USA either. Both countries are dangerous, run by dangerous people. The only good thing is that they are in opposition, keeping each other in check. Anyone who is virulently against either needs to take a good long look at their opposition.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on July 23, 2015, 07:33:06 PM
Censored,

I'll let you in on a little secret. They are all dangerous.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 07:36:30 PM
ahh dude.. i've just woken up after only a few hours sleep, but even i can spot the glaringly obvious lack of awareness which allowed this post to be believed enough to post. Science really doesnt work..

This is the dumbest thing you've ever said. Science does work, all the time. Our entire civilisation is built on scientific progress. From the computer you type on, to the vehicles you travel in, to the medicine available to you, to the satellites in orbit that let you talk to someone thousands of kilometres away. Science works, period. If it didn't work, none of this would exist.

oh it's hit and miss strategy of never giving up sometimes allows us glimpses into things we still dont comprehend. but science is based on and came from books written thousands of years ago :P

No it isn't. Science is based on observed fact. There may be a very few papers from thousands of years ago that were actually accurate, but they survive only so long as they aren't proved wrong. Science is based on making predictions and trying to prove them wrong. Religion is based on making shit up and trying to prove them right, discarding any evidence that works against them.

I may come back to this and actually pull apart your statement because, believe me, you really should think about it a little more.

Right back at you.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 07:36:55 PM
Censored,

I'll let you in on a little secret. They are all dangerous.

I agree.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 08:12:15 PM
Meh, atheists have been persecuted for centuries. It's only natural there'd be a blowback once they started realising how common the lack of belief in a god actually is (and atheism is simply a lack of belief, not a belief in and of itself).

atheist
ˈeɪθɪɪst/Submit
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods

Unfortunately perhaps for your argument, Atheism isn't only a lack of belief, but maybe more important was the addition to this that I added, whereby I said those who believed in science.. I've never heard a single atheist say, I lack belief in a god, quite the opposite in fact, I've never encountered a single atheist who wouldnt argue that they didnt believe in god, that they believed god and religion was poppycock.

Besides, at least science works. Religion has rarely been the source of a solution to a problem.

If I manage to guess your password, after 100 years of trying, do I say that was science? or dumb luck? The password will work until you change it, so the result is repeatable, if I screenshot every attempt, there's the evidence, I can even make some weird and wonderful assumptions to what it might be beforehand, there's your prediction. What I fail to see is science working ahead of its time. There arent answers for things we have no measurement for.. That's the extreme test for science, and why it falls short in my opinion.

Science also doesn't make moral judgements. The biggest religions today are literally told to kill unbelievers, heretics, and followers of other faiths. Any atheist who goes down that road had to come up with it themselves, and probably has justification for it (that doesn't make it right, but it is hardly surprising) that is far superior than words in a book written thousands of years ago.

Religions don't make moral judgements either, the practitioners of it do, as do scientists/atheists regarding religion and its past/followers

This is the dumbest thing you've ever said. Science does work, all the time. Our entire civilisation is built on scientific progress. From the computer you type on, to the vehicles you travel in, to the medicine available to you, to the satellites in orbit that let you talk to someone thousands of kilometres away. Science works, period. If it didn't work, none of this would exist.

Actually fella, hate to say it, but our entire civilisation was built on the backs of religion and its followers, up until only a short time ago, religion was the motivating force in society. The things you speak of, happened in the last 50-100 years.. we've been around millennia. I'm not saying that science doesnt eventually get it right, or science isnt some worthwhile input.. But what i was trying to convey in my sleepy haze was that, science and its theories have been proving wrong, time and time again.. the belief in science is no more real than religion, because tomorrow, it may all change given a new breakthrough.

No it isn't. Science is based on observed fact. There may be a very few papers from thousands of years ago that were actually accurate, but they survive only so long as they aren't proved wrong. Science is based on making predictions and trying to prove them wrong. Religion is based on making shit up and trying to prove them right, discarding any evidence that works against them.

Let me give you an example of Science, making shit up and trying to prove it right... Light, it started off as a wave, then it was theorised as a particle, now there are 3 distinct theories about light, wave, particle and wave-particle duality. We all see light, we all know it comes from the sun, that's observable, but when it comes down to the predicting stuff we cannot see, science fails until such time as we're able to comprehend or technology advances sufficiently.

it's like the guy who screams WE'RE ALL DOOMED.. eventually he's going to be right.

and one last point.. if you're going to defend science.. which is your right.. at least give examples which are based in the sciences, most of those given are feats of engineering, no-one ever called the guy who invented the wheel a scientist :P
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: kru on July 23, 2015, 09:48:02 PM
grace, to be fair, you are nothing but a keyboard warrior so have no ability to assess or determine any sort of risk.....albeit breaking a nail on the space bar.

for some bizarre reason you once again make an assumption leading towards the fact i am American.....well, seeing how you vehemently oppose everything other than Russian, and have blatantly stated that Russia would not make a first strike launch, you must be Russian, or at least be a great supporter.

When determining risk you do not just look at the immediate risk based on the current circs, your have to look at history....History shows that between (and doing this research was very hard) 1970 - 1982 Russia set its nuclear arsenal to launch conditions more than 25 times.....compared to America's 6 (7 if you count the system crit failure)

I am not American, i am English.....My heart lies with my country and only my country.......I have no interest in what America does, Russia does or any other country....but i like to keep appraised of situations that would or could affect my country, my life and the life of my children...

All the pro Russians in this thread have all failed and averted to the fact that ONLY Putin has made statement and claim to the use of nuclear weapons......well, no shit sherlock.....that speaks volumes initself
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 10:17:50 PM
atheist
ˈeɪθɪɪst/Submit
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods

See the bold, and improve your reading comprehension.

Unfortunately perhaps for your argument, Atheism isn't only a lack of belief, but maybe more important was the addition to this that I added, whereby I said those who believed in science.. I've never heard a single atheist say, I lack belief in a god, quite the opposite in fact, I've never encountered a single atheist who wouldnt argue that they didnt believe in god, that they believed god and religion was poppycock.

Then you haven't listened to many atheists, because I've only very rarely heard atheists claim they believe there is no god. Such people do exist, but they are a very small minority in the overall atheist population.

You can't say that anymore, because I'm an atheist, and I lack belief in any god. If evidence for a god is ever presented to me, I'll reevaluate my position. But so far that hasn't happened.

And belief in science is perfectly valid. It also has nothing to do with the question of a god. A whole lot of theists believe in science, and a bunch of atheists don't. The Flat Earth Society is made up of atheists, for example. And the Catholic church has embraced science. Religion and science can coexist. Only fools think otherwise.

If I manage to guess your password, after 100 years of trying, do I say that was science? or dumb luck?

Depends how you do it. If you're methodical and never try the same password twice then it's a victory for science. If you just randomly type shit then it's dumb luck.

The password will work until you change it, so the result is repeatable, if I screenshot every attempt, there's the evidence, I can even make some weird and wonderful assumptions to what it might be beforehand, there's your prediction.

All very scientific of you. Until...

What I fail to see is science working ahead of its time. There arent answers for things we have no measurement for.. That's the extreme test for science, and why it falls short in my opinion.

That's not science. Science can't, and doesn't try, to deal with complete unknowns. The closest thing you can point to is the dark matter/dark energy issue. But they aren't complete unknowns. There are mathematical flaws in our understanding of gravity and universal expansion. Dark matter/dark energy are hypothetical solutions to these flaws that scientists are searching for. We'll eventually find them, or we'll find out that something else can account for the flaws. Because of the scientific method.

If you want an answer for meaning or gods or magic or ghosts, science can't and won't help you. Not until something testable presents itself. But that isn't a flaw in science, it's a strength. It's why it always works. You'll have to try something else for that stuff, and you'll have to take it on faith. Science doesn't deal with faith, it deals with testable, repeatable, material, provable phenomena.

Religions don't make moral judgements either, the practitioners of it do, as do scientists/atheists regarding religion and its past/followers

Bullshit. The entire foundation of christianity is the books used to compile the bible, and they make extremely specific claims on what is and isn't moral. The same is true for every religion I'm familiar with. It's possible there are some religions that don't set morality in stone, but all of them combined don't even equate to 1% of the religious population.

Actually fella, hate to say it, but our entire civilisation was built on the backs of religion and its followers, up until only a short time ago, religion was the motivating force in society.

No. Our society of 200 years ago was built on religion. Our society today is built on science. WWI contained the first major steps towards a shift to science. WWII turned steps into leaps. And since WWII, science has taken over.

But what i was trying to convey in my sleepy haze was that, science and its theories have been proving wrong, time and time again.. the belief in science is no more real than religion, because tomorrow, it may all change given a new breakthrough.

No scientific theory has EVER been proved wrong. EVER. Science has never been proved wrong. You need to learn what science is, because right now you're incredibly ignorant.

Let me give you an example of Science, making shit up and trying to prove it right... Light, it started off as a wave, then it was theorised as a particle, now there are 3 distinct theories about light, wave, particle and wave-particle duality. We all see light, we all know it comes from the sun, that's observable, but when it comes down to the predicting stuff we cannot see, science fails until such time as we're able to comprehend or technology advances sufficiently.

Theory is a scientific statement that has been tested and retested ad absurdum until it can be said with near absolute certainty that something is true. Evolution is a theory. Gravity is a theory. A theory is a process. Not a definition. Light was never a theory, because light isn't a process.

Light is electromagnetic radiation. That we've not yet defined it to our satisfaction has absolutely no impact on the usefulness of science. If not for science, we wouldn't know as much about it as we do. And we'd never be able to define it.

and one last point.. if you're going to defend science.. which is your right.. at least give examples which are based in the sciences, most of those given are feats of engineering, no-one ever called the guy who invented the wheel a scientist

The moon landing. Quantum computers. Genetics. Satelites. Space probes. Nuclear technology. I could go on for years. None of these would be possible without science.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 10:18:43 PM
When determining risk you do not just look at the immediate risk based on the current circs, your have to look at history....History shows that between (and doing this research was very hard) 1970 - 1982 Russia set its nuclear arsenal to launch conditions more than 25 times.....compared to America's 6 (7 if you count the system crit failure)

All the pro Russians in this thread have all failed and averted to the fact that ONLY Putin has made statement and claim to the use of nuclear weapons......well, no shit sherlock.....that speaks volumes initself

So, we're suppose to forget about the only power to have actually dropped nukes during hostilities and is busily conquering the world and building military bases, and concentrate our fear on the guys, whom, conceivably tested their systems 25 times and threatened once, even after so much provocation?

I'm English, my parents and grand parents are English (I can trace the lineage back to the late middle ages), many of my family have fought for this country. This does not prove my point, but logic, fact and reasonable deductions do.

I'm just not brainwashed into thinking the military way.. You're so quick to label Putin indoctrinated, but can't see, whatever service you was part of, did the same damn thing to you. But that's a cop out, you do have a choice to think about it, rather than grasping for whatever slim pieces of distorted information you can find to support your belief, but you don't.. and that my friend, is the true meaning of indoctrination, you were fed a line, and you swallowed it without even checking to see if there was a hook. and here you are, years later like the little pet robot you are, spouting the crap they wanted you to follow unquestioning.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 10:24:11 PM
So, we're suppose to forget about the only power to have actually dropped nukes during hostilities and is busily conquering the world and building military bases, and concentrate our fear on the guys, whom, conceivably tested their systems 25 times and threatened once, even after so much provocation?

I'm English, my parents and grand parents are English (I can trace the lineage back to the late middle ages), many of my family have fought for this country. This does not prove my point, but logic, fact and reasonable deductions do.

I'm just not brainwashed into thinking the military way.. You're so quick to label Putin indoctrinated, but can't see, whatever service you was part of, did the same damn thing to you. But that's a cop out, you do have a choice to think about it, rather than grasping for whatever slim pieces of distorted information you can find to support your belief, but you don't.. and that my friend, is the true meaning of indoctrination, you were fed a line, and you swallowed it without even checking to see if there was a hook. and here you are, years later like the little pet robot you are, spouting the crap they wanted you to follow unquestioning.

QFT
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 10:32:13 PM
quoted for truth?
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 23, 2015, 10:35:14 PM
Yes. ;D
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 23, 2015, 11:25:07 PM
See the bold, and improve your reading comprehension.

did you really just do that.. you emboldened the piece that you had to skip over the point to get to :D

Then you haven't listened to many atheists, because I've only very rarely heard atheists claim they believe there is no god. Such people do exist, but they are a very small minority in the overall atheist population.

You can't say that anymore, because I'm an atheist, and I lack belief in any god. If evidence for a god is ever presented to me, I'll reevaluate my position. But so far that hasn't happened.

There is evidence of a higher power of sorts, we can get to that shortly if you wish, however I think religion is man-made, the same as science, it's man's perception of the physical world

And belief in science is perfectly valid. It also has nothing to do with the question of a god. A whole lot of theists believe in science, and a bunch of atheists don't. The Flat Earth Society is made up of atheists, for example. And the Catholic church has embraced science. Religion and science can coexist. Only fools think otherwise.

I think you either missed my point, or went off on your own here. It's well known that some of the most venerated scientists were indeed believers in religion. I cant remember who or the exact quote, but a well known physicist said something like "The more we find in science, the closer I feel to God"

Depends how you do it. If you're methodical and never try the same password twice then it's a victory for science. If you just randomly type shit then it's dumb luck.

All very scientific of you. Until...

That's not science. Science can't, and doesn't try, to deal with complete unknowns. The closest thing you can point to is the dark matter/dark energy issue. But they aren't complete unknowns. There are mathematical flaws in our understanding of gravity and universal expansion. Dark matter/dark energy are hypothetical solutions to these flaws that scientists are searching for. We'll eventually find them, or we'll find out that something else can account for the flaws. Because of the scientific method.

But, that was my point perhaps poorly made. Here are things, which we've conceptualised but our scientific method: prediction, cannot give us accurate information.. It will always be the case, imo, that rather than being ahead of the curve, we'll always be chasing the ideas til they smack us in the face, and we say "oh that's how that works"

If you want an answer for meaning or gods or magic or ghosts, science can't and won't help you. Not until something testable presents itself. But that isn't a flaw in science, it's a strength. It's why it always works. You'll have to try something else for that stuff, and you'll have to take it on faith. Science doesn't deal with faith, it deals with testable, repeatable, material, provable phenomena.

Bullshit. The entire foundation of christianity is the books used to compile the bible, and they make extremely specific claims on what is and isn't moral. The same is true for every religion I'm familiar with. It's possible there are some religions that don't set morality in stone, but all of them combined don't even equate to 1% of the religious population.

As far as I'm concerned, the bible, Christianity and every other religion on Earth are man-made, religions themselves would be nothing without belief and followers.. you see where i was going with that?

No. Our society of 200 years ago was built on religion. Our society today is built on science. WWI contained the first major steps towards a shift to science. WWII turned steps into leaps. And since WWII, science has taken over.

You said our entire civilisation was built on..  but looking at the raw numbers, only the last, shall we be kind and say 2% of our civilisation was science built. I agree, we're now pushed forward by science, religion still plays a part for billions of people though.

No scientific theory has EVER been proved wrong. EVER. Science has never been proved wrong. You need to learn what science is, because right now you're incredibly ignorant.

You should look up "caloric heat" or "caloric theory" just off the top of my head :P

Theory is a scientific statement that has been tested and retested ad absurdum until it can be said with near absolute certainty that something is true. Evolution is a theory. Gravity is a theory. A theory is a process. Not a definition. Light was never a theory, because light isn't a process.

I know the difference, sometimes I'm sloppy with my wording.. but theory, even in science does not mean fact. Even if the theory can be used in practical applications, it doesn't mean we've got it right, it just means we've tapped into something through blind luck.

But, I'm not sure you do know the difference, Scientific theory is not a process, but an explanation into some aspect of life substantiated via the scientific method.

Light is electromagnetic radiation. That we've not yet defined it to our satisfaction has absolutely no impact on the usefulness of science. If not for science, we wouldn't know as much about it as we do. And we'd never be able to define it.

It was just an example, but actually there has been Theories of light, including one from Newton himself :P

The moon landing. Quantum computers. Genetics. Satelites. Space probes. Nuclear technology. I could go on for years. None of these would be possible without science.

OK I can dig these examples, somewhat better than, the car i drive and computer i use etc
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 24, 2015, 12:03:28 AM
All the pro Russians in this thread have all failed and averted to the fact that ONLY Putin has made statement and claim to the use of nuclear weapons......well, no shit sherlock.....that speaks volumes initself

Russia would never initiate a nuclear strike unless its sovereignty was under threat.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 12:19:05 AM
did you really just do that.. you emboldened the piece that you had to skip over the point to get to

Did you really just ignore the bold? You do know that a definition that has multiple meanings has multiple meanings, right? :P

There is evidence of a higher power of sorts, we can get to that shortly if you wish, however I think religion is man-made, the same as science, it's man's perception of the physical world

There is no such evidence. The very term 'higher power' is inherently broken and useless. For a term to be useful, it must specifically refer to something. Things like 'higher power' and 'supernatural' and 'immaterial' do not refer to anything. All they do is refer to what something is not, and that is completely useless in any discussion.

I think you either missed my point, or went off on your own here. It's well known that some of the most venerated scientists were indeed believers in religion. I cant remember who or the exact quote, but a well known physicist said something like "The more we find in science, the closer I feel to God"

And that scientist was an atheist, who used the term god as a metaphor so everyone could easily understand his awe. I use the term too on occasion, that doesn't make me a believer. It's part of English. It's literally impossible to grow up without hearing or using it in a English speaking area.

But, that was my point perhaps poorly made. Here are things, which we've conceptualised but our scientific method: prediction, cannot give us accurate information.. It will always be the case, imo, that rather than being ahead of the curve, we'll always be chasing the ideas til they smack us in the face, and we say "oh that's how that works"


Last I checked noone can see the future. How exactly are we going to learn anything without making predictions and testing them? You think the Americans would have developed a nuke if they skipped the prediction phase and built a bomb without an implosive device that used radioactive material? Maybe they'd have been more successful strapping wires to rocks and believing they'd blow up?

As far as I'm concerned, the bible, Christianity and every other religion on Earth are man-made, religions themselves would be nothing without belief and followers.. you see where i was going with that?


A religion isn't a religion without an organised belief structure. You don't have to be religious to believe in a god. But you do in order to be a christian or a muslim.
I think you are trying to describe spiritual beliefs. If so, I agree completely. If you have your own concept of god(s), then only you define ethics.
But no religion fits that bill.

You said our entire civilisation was built on..  but looking at the raw numbers, only the last, shall we be kind and say 2% of our civilisation was science built. I agree, we're now pushed forward by science, religion still plays a part for billions of people though.


I've never and will never deny that religion has a role to play. But religion didn't build our society, science did. Religion helped install the foundation, but the structure was because of science. We didn't go to the moon because of religion. We didn't build cars and trains and planes because of religion. We didn't make computers and phones and the internet because of religion. We did it all because of science. You want to see what religion did while science did all that, go talk to a mennonite.

You should look up "caloric heat" or "caloric theory" just off the top of my head

Psuedoscience. You might as well mention cryptozoology and ghost hunters while you're at it. Just because someone claims to use science doesn't mean they are. Lots of scam artists out there try to use scientific terminology to impress people who are ignorant. A brief research project proves they are frauds.

I know the difference, sometimes I'm sloppy with my wording.. but theory, even in science does not mean fact. Even if the theory can be used in practical applications, it doesn't mean we've got it right, it just means we've tapped into something through blind luck.

In science, the term theory is as close to meaning fact as you will ever see. No scientist will ever claim anything absolutely, because all science is constantly subject to review. Even the laws of physics could hypothetically be proved wrong one day. But try as we might, we haven't done it yet.
The only way to be absolutely certain of anything is to be omniscient. But omniscience is impossible. Scientists know this. So we use the term theory because it exhibits the quality of being subject to new evidence. It doesn't in any way mean that something is a guess. It's a fact, until proved otherwise. As yet, nothing that ever got through review sufficiently to become a scientific theory has ever been proved wrong.

But, I'm not sure you do know the difference, Scientific theory is not a process, but an explanation into some aspect of life substantiated via the scientific method.

No, it's a description of an observed and tested natural process that allows us to understand the why and how of said process. Often a series of descriptions. It can be about life (evolution), but isn't necessarily (gravity). There is no theory of sound or light or cells or rocks or anything else that has a definition. That's linguistic, not scientific. Scientific theories describe how defined phenomena react under certain conditions. Which is a process.

It was just an example, but actually there has been Theories of light, including one from Newton himself

Hypothesis. It isn't a theory just because the person who came up with it calls it a theory. It is scientific consensus that determines whether or not something is a theory. Anyone who makes a statement and terms it a theory is doomed to ridicule and embarrassment when 5000 scientists critique it. I don't know of a single theory that began and ended with one scientist. Newton got gravity wrong. Darwin only touched the tip of the iceberg of evolution, and had more wrong than right in the process. Theories get refined as more becomes known. No theory can be said to be perfect. It's simply the most factual we can come up with for now.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 12:43:30 AM
ah man.. I'm not going to even bother with you, I've had enough for today.. you really need to check your facts.. I did.. what you just prattled off was no more than trolling for your egos sake.. very little insight or real content.

and dude.. picking at one word.. as in my use of the word life, instead of "natural world"  to somehow make your incorrect assertions of "process" plausible, is how grace and brianC manage to own you regularly.

here's some light reading for you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caloric_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpuscular_theory_of_light

I love the way you nonchalantly, say scientific theories have never been disproved, then given evidence against that, turn your back on science, and go with belief..pseudo-science my ass.. Newtons theory held for 100 years.. your statements dont hold for 5 minutes.. says alot ..
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 06:11:24 AM
wow really really jesus christ who the hell started this damn convo back up ya'll need some hobbies for real and grace needs to get off russia's dick for real lol unless she from russia then feel free to get back on it


all i see is BBLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH NUKE THIS WAR THAT AMERICA THIS RUSSIA THAT BLAH BLAH SCIENCE MUMBO JUMBO BLAH BLAH BLAAH


(http://www.contentamp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/meme7.jpg)

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(http://sitevolt.com/canadianmemes/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/05/canadian-meme.jpg)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 06:17:11 AM
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(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/72/7211fc56f7069cee777ec865d87630a05fc67566b9c8fb5a4e355199b2947dfb.jpg)

(http://sitevolt.com/canadianmemes/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2014/03/canadian-navy-russia.jpg)

(http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/arcadesushi.com/550/files/2013/09/GTA-Canada.jpg)

russia and the usa are next
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 06:26:19 AM
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/823/232/a69.jpg)

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(http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/RUSSIA-MEME-ELITE.jpg)

(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/083/198/in-russian-jurassic-park-jeff-goldblum-chase-you-17301-1279064532-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 06:42:13 AM
(http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-74b96a9cfe4a6cac05368450d59b49d1?convert_to_webp=true)

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/8e/8e76b8a11faa4f8759937284a1a6f2ec7b93702e1a7ebc4d4f453894546eb777.jpg)

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(http://www.geekfill.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Military-Technology-USA-Vs.-Japan.jpg)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:57:15 AM
ah man.. I'm not going to even bother with you, I've had enough for today.. you really need to check your facts.. I did.. what you just prattled off was no more than trolling for your egos sake.. very little insight or real content.

and dude.. picking at one word.. as in my use of the word life, instead of "natural world"  to somehow make your incorrect assertions of "process" plausible, is how grace and brianC manage to own you regularly.

here's some light reading for you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caloric_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpuscular_theory_of_light

I love the way you nonchalantly, say scientific theories have never been disproved, then given evidence against that, turn your back on science, and go with belief..pseudo-science my ass.. Newtons theory held for 100 years.. your statements dont hold for 5 minutes.. says alot ..

^ One giant load of horseshit. You know shit about how science works, shit about it in general, shit about religion, and shit about atheism. Here's some reading for you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
http://www.britannica.com/topic/scientific-hypothesis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

FYI, your own link agrees with me that caloric theory wasn't a theory. Rofl. Not that wikipedia is a great source to mention, but whatever.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 09:02:14 AM
As for Tech9...
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 10:48:51 AM
^ One giant load of horseshit. You know shit about how science works, shit about it in general, shit about religion, and shit about atheism. Here's some reading for you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
http://www.britannica.com/topic/scientific-hypothesis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

FYI, your own link agrees with me that caloric theory wasn't a theory. Rofl. Not that wikipedia is a great source to mention, but whatever.

That's where you're wrong.. but i know you well enough to know, even when wrong you'll never back down.. you'll even go to the lengths of making shit up, just to seem like you're right.. no-where on that page does it say "caloric theory" wasnt actually a theory.. In fact it does say how it was used tested and seen in literature for centuries.

and then, like a parting jab because you know there was an awful lot of truth to what i said on those pages, and your words just wasnt enough to fool yourself, you mock the source (while using it yourself)

OK wiki, isnt the absolute in research material.. but much like the rest of science, its under constant review.. if you write crap up there and someone spots it.. they can write about it.. and no-one loves disproving crap better than scientists.. which is why it's usually good information there.

The thing I like most about this, is the guy who doesn't think science works well, actually knows more about science, than the guy claiming to. You mistakenly thought of Scientific theory as Scientific Law..
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 02:06:12 PM
And just to show some of your fabricated shit, I went and did some research and found the truth, you know that ol' chestnut science at work again..

And that scientist was an atheist, who used the term god as a metaphor so everyone could easily understand his awe. I use the term too on occasion, that doesn't make me a believer. It's part of English. It's literally impossible to grow up without hearing or using it in a English speaking area.

“The more I study science, the more I believe in God.”

–Albert Einstein (at best, Einstein was agnostic (which is neither belief nor disbelieve in God, but he repeatedly and undeniably denied being atheist, going as far as to mock them on many occasions)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein

Here's some more, extremely well known scientists, with IQ's you could only dream about, that also believe in a higher power.

“The question of whether there exists a Creator and Ruler of the Universe has been answered in the affirmative by some of the highest intellects that have ever existed.”

–Charles Darwin

“This sense of wonder leads most scientists to a Superior Being – der Alte, the Old One, as Einstein affectionately called the Deity – a Superior Intelligence, the Lord of all Creation and Natural Law.”

—Abdus Salam

“A scientific discovery is also a religious discovery. There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”

–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr

“It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion.”

–Paul Davies

“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”

“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”

—Lord William Kelvin

This one is just for you...

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ – cannot hear the music of the spheres.”

—Albert Einstein
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on July 24, 2015, 06:09:02 PM
Russia would never initiate a nuclear strike unless its sovereignty was under threat.

In today's world...probably. Mutually Assured Distruction has basically nullified nuclear arms. To a point. Rouge states can not be included in that theory. But in the past it was a very real part of the Soviets plan to invade Western Europe.
Vienna, Rome, Bonn, Amsterdam, London, Paris, just to name a few cities, were all on the list to be hit just before an invasion. They did the research and saw what happened in Japan. Two bombs dropped in relatively in close proximity to each other geographically as well as time. They figured that small hits on all the major cities would disrupt the west enough to not effectively defend Europe and they could march in without causing massive ecological damage.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 07:08:09 PM
That's where you're wrong..

Nope, you are wrong.

but i know you well enough to know, even when wrong you'll never back down..

Which proves you don't know me, and that you're projecting your own character flaws.

you'll even go to the lengths of making shit up, just to seem like you're right..

Projection.

no-where on that page does it say "caloric theory" wasnt actually a theory.. In fact it does say how it was used tested and seen in literature for centuries.

Wrong!
"Quite a number of successful explanations can be, and were, made from these hypotheses alone."

^referring to caloric, kinetic, and frigoric. You fail at English.

and then, like a parting jab because you know there was an awful lot of truth to what i said on those pages, and your words just wasnt enough to fool yourself, you mock the source (while using it yourself)

I used it because you used it. That doesn't make it credible. What's funny is how you can't actually argue against anything I said. You had to turn away and toss out a troll post because you just can't handle getting your ass handed to you.

OK wiki, isnt the absolute in research material.. but much like the rest of science, its under constant review..

By unqualified idiots with personal agenda's who have full control over who can and can't contribute to articles. In other words, it isn't remotely comparable to scientific peer review.

if you write crap up there and someone spots it.. they can write about it.. and no-one loves disproving crap better than scientists.. which is why it's usually good information there.

Scientists are usually too busy doing science and writing papers to bother with stupid shit on a website that has such a spotty reputation that no credible school accepts them as a source. That's why you don't see scientists accepting debates with young earth christians.

The thing I like most about this, is the guy who doesn't think science works well, actually knows more about science, than the guy claiming to. You mistakenly thought of Scientific theory as Scientific Law..

Says the guy who still hasn't read the article on scientific theory and still doesn't know shit from a hole in the ground. ;D
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 07:19:25 PM
And just to show some of your fabricated shit, I went and did some research and found the truth, you know that ol' chestnut science at work again..

Your idea of research leaves much to be desired.

“The more I study science, the more I believe in God.”

–Albert Einstein (at best, Einstein was agnostic (which is neither belief nor disbelieve in God, but he repeatedly and undeniably denied being atheist, going as far as to mock them on many occasions)

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

-Albert Einstein, admitting he's an atheist. Pro tip: atheism and agnosticism describe different things. Agnosticism speaks about knowledge, atheism about belief. You can be an agnostic atheist (most are, as I pointed out a few posts ago), or a gnostic atheist (the atheist you foolishly thought described all atheists). Lern2english.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm

Here's some more, extremely well known scientists, with IQ's you could only dream about, that also believe in a higher power.

I'm not going to run through a tonne of crap. This is all just an appeal to authority. Lern2logic.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 07:36:41 PM
You've come with absolutely no fact at all and trolled.. the only person here using projection is you.. It's also quite funny, that is your argument to anyone with anything negative to say about you..

But, once again you show absolutely no understanding for the nuances of the Scientific method, then rather learning something, you've grabbed at one word in the entire document, to try and win a small victory.

Every Scientific theory is a hypothesis, however, every Scientific hypothesis is not a theory.

This is clearly and unmistakably marked as an obsolete theory, widely used and successful even though it was eventually replaced, there of course was a hypothesis to begin the process. But, that is not what they meant by your little copy paste "victory".

You use generalisations without basis, assumptions without the education, Unlike you, I do read fully the documents I'm using as evidence, that's why I can constantly, ridicule your position.

You think Scientific theories are fact!!!! LOL they are not. they are a hypothesis, collected evidence, and conclusions, which then undergo peer review and are constantly challenged/modified and/or made obsolete when something closer to truth becomes available. I could make a theory about you and put it on the web for review, that doesnt mean its true or factual.

The thing you tried to say Theories were, is Scientific LAW, those are observed processes in the natural world, they are tested repeatedly and will always show true under the same conditions, often resulting in mathematical equations.

Now seriously, do yourself a favour.. check the mirror because you're making yourself look like a fool, maybe you don't care, but I've better things to do with my time then try to teach a guy that doesn't want to or cannot learn.

as for the whole "projection" crap, there is proof on this damn forum of your inability to stop, even to the point of making up lies, and when those lies are shown, you say "i was just trolling" like that means something to anyone.. we all know you're a fool.. try doing something else for a change.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 07:47:52 PM
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

-Albert Einstein, admitting he's an atheist. Pro tip: atheism and agnosticism describe different things. Agnosticism speaks about knowledge, atheism about belief. You can be an agnostic atheist (most are, as I pointed out a few posts ago), or a gnostic atheist (the atheist you foolishly thought described all atheists). Lern2english.

OMG - so you again pick out the tiny reference, which by the way is misquoted and out of context, that somehow seems like it justifies your trolling, even though you have to add your own intrepretation to his words..real deal.. no need for me to change or misinterpret anything

 "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal god is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:05:15 PM
You've come with absolutely no fact at all and trolled..

Projection.

But, once again you show absolutely no understanding for the nuances of the Scientific method, then rather learning something, you've grabbed at one word in the entire document, to try and win a small victory.

^ Describing himself. His failure to read one word turned him into a laughing stock.

Every Scientific theory is a hypothesis, however, every Scientific hypothesis is not a theory.

^ Still hasn't read the article on scientific theory, nor the one on hypothesis.

This is clearly and unmistakably marked as an obsolete theory, widely used and successful even though it was eventually replaced, there of course was a hypothesis to begin the process. But, that is not what they meant by your little copy paste "victory".

It is clearly marked as a hypothesis, which means it was never a theory.

You use generalisations without basis, assumptions without the education, Unlike you, I do read fully the documents I'm using as evidence, that's why I can constantly, ridicule your position.

Lies and projections.

You think Scientific theories are fact!!!! LOL they are not.

Still failing to comprehend what you read.

they are a hypothesis,

Nope.

collected evidence, and conclusions, which then undergo peer review and are constantly challenged/modified and/or made obsolete when something closer to truth becomes available. I could make a theory about you and put it on the web for review, that doesnt mean its true or factual.

It wouldn't be a scientific theory either.

The thing you tried to say Theories were, is Scientific LAW, those are observed processes in the natural world, they are tested repeatedly and will always show true under the same conditions, often resulting in mathematical equations.

A law is a description of an aspect of the universe. It is a generalisation. No theory could ever become a law, because they are too specific. Laws do not attempt to explain phenomena like theories do. Some more reading for you:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law

Now seriously, do yourself a favour.. check the mirror because you're making yourself look like a fool, maybe you don't care, but I've better things to do with my time then try to teach a guy that doesn't want to or cannot learn.

Take your own advice. You're only proving your wilful ignorance with every post.

as for the whole "projection" crap, there is proof on this damn forum of your inability to stop, even to the point of making up lies, and when those lies are shown, you say "i was just trolling" like that means something to anyone.. we all know you're a fool.. try doing something else for a change.

You keep describing yourself perfectly.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 08:12:33 PM
yeah, you just hit my bullshit threshold.. you failed the intellectual challenge, so now you come with the same crap you do everyone else...

you cant even hold an argument, you cant process information, you cant stay on point.. is there anything you can do besides make yourself look a fool?

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:13:28 PM
OMG - so you again pick out the tiny reference, which by the way is misquoted and out of context

Bullshit, bullshit, and more bullshit. You just can't accept defeat under any circumstances, can you? No matter how stupid it makes you look. Rofl.

that somehow seems like it justifies your trolling, even though you have to add your own intrepretation to his words..real deal.. no need for me to change or misinterpret anything

Hypocrites are funny. You add your interpretation but I can't do the same. Ha ha ha

 "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal god is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

Thanks for proving my point. I see you're still having trouble with the multiple definitions thing though. You really should work on that.

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

Quoting out of context. Rofl.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:13:59 PM
yeah, you just hit my bullshit threshold.. you failed the intellectual challenge, so now you come with the same crap you do everyone else...

you cant even hold an argument, you cant process information, you cant stay on point.. is there anything you can do besides make yourself look a fool?



You've been owned kid. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 08:14:13 PM
yeah, you just hit my bullshit threshold.. you failed the intellectual challenge, so now you come with the same crap you do everyone else...

you cant even hold an argument, you cant process information, you cant stay on point.. is there anything you can do besides make yourself look a fool?

he'll just troll you until you give in bro soooo not worth the effort


As for Tech9...

not cool dude you should never post pictures like that last one and say innocent people deserved it besides i thought i already successfully trolled america guess not
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:19:07 PM
not cool dude you should never post pictures like that last one and say innocent people deserved it besides i thought i already successfully trolled america guess not

The day the US stops killing innocents by multiple times the number of casualties of 9/11 every year is the day you can claim that's not cool.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 08:21:10 PM
You've been owned kid. Deal with it.

No, I've just been enlightened, for a short while, I gave you some credit, where it's obviously apparent no credit is due.. Your points aren't sharp, your insults inoffensive.. You took a really good subject to talk about and showed the world, you cannot hold your own.

I've had this same discussion many times in the past, I quite frankly love it, but with you on the other side of the table, we didn't get past the opening remarks before the "debate" became nothing more than having to constantly argue point after point with absolutely no ground given to fact or reason..

It was a waste of time.. maybe i'm the bigger fool for entertaining it, as long as i did.. but, i know how to rectify those kinds of mistake.. you unfortunately will stay a fool an awful long time with your attitude towards learning.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 08:23:25 PM
The day the US stops killing innocents by multiple times the number of casualties of 9/11 every year is the day you can claim that's not cool.

ehem US military kid not the civi's you are really a prick sometimes guess i'll have to meme troll you
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:24:33 PM
No, I've just been enlightened, for a short while,

No, you haven't.

I gave you some credit, where it's obviously apparent no credit is due.. Your points aren't sharp, your insults inoffensive.. You took a really good subject to talk about and showed the world, you cannot hold your own.

Still projecting.

I've had this same discussion many times in the past, I quite frankly love it, but with you on the other side of the table, we didn't get past the opening remarks before the "debate" became nothing more than having to constantly argue point after point with absolutely no ground given to fact or reason..

So you enjoy the discussion when you are talking with other ignorant people, but when someone with brains shows up you have a bad time. Got ya.

It was a waste of time.. maybe i'm the bigger fool for entertaining it, as long as i did.. but, i know how to rectify those kinds of mistake.. you unfortunately will stay a fool an awful long time with your attitude towards learning.

Keep projecting. Or get off your ass and learn something.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:26:20 PM
ehem US military kid not the civi's you are really a prick sometimes guess i'll have to meme troll you

The US is a democracy. The government YOU elected tells the military to kill civilians all over the world. There's no such thing as an American civilian. You're all complicit.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 08:30:26 PM
No, you haven't. still disagreeing without substance

Still projecting. still using the same crap you do to everyone that's better than you

So you enjoy the discussion when you are talking with other ignorant people, but when someone with brains shows up you have a bad time. Got ya. still using that same tiresome ego of yours to cover the truth

Keep projecting. Or get off your ass and learn something. I think you're in denial, i just schooled you, and you're too thick to understand it
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:34:46 PM
still disagreeing without substance

Still projecting.

still using the same crap you do to everyone that's better than you

Still projecting.

still using that same tiresome ego of yours to cover the truth

Still projecting.

I think you're in denial, i just schooled you, and you're too thick to understand it

Aaaaaaand still projecting. *YAWN*
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 08:39:36 PM
yep and there we have it.. with no debating skills, you've devolved into nothing more than repetitive b.s. of the highest degree..

We can do this all night fella, i wanted a good debate, but you're incapable of having one of those and now i see that this has become a contest of who will post last trolling spam.. I'll carry on til you're blue in the face..

you see that type of crap as a win.. and i wouldnt want that.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 08:43:31 PM
The US is a democracy. The government YOU elected tells the military to kill civilians all over the world. There's no such thing as an American civilian. You're all complicit.

yeah we are all just asking our military to kill innocents death to the innocents is what we burn them shoot them BLAH BLAH BLAH but name one military op from any major country not did not have collateral damage people make mistakes under the heat of battle but you wouldn't know that you are just another loud mouth civi with extremist views

your extremist views are not only annoying but wrong

(http://orig12.deviantart.net/a89d/f/2012/150/1/f/epic_fail__caboose___epic_fail_by_wrath_and_wesley-d51ptaf.jpg)

(http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i58/5/10/1/frabz-You-made-captain-picard-face-palm-you-must-be-an-epic-fail-014ac8.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0c/d9/5c/0cd95c2b2ae7413df7bd06984215d11f.jpg)

(http://happycarpenter.blogs.com/the_happy_carpenter/images/2007/08/28/military_motivator_checksix.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ea/68/03/ea6803cdd3539ccfc140fc3e18ef13ff.jpg)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:43:49 PM
yep and there we have it.. with no debating skills, you've devolved into nothing more than repetitive b.s. of the highest degree..

When you stopped attempting to make arguments and switched gears to trolling, you lost. No more effort on my part is required.

We can do this all night fella, i wanted a good debate, but you're incapable of having one of those and now i see that this has become a contest of who will post last trolling spam.. I'll carry on til you're blue in the face..

Then we'll be here a looooong time. Because I'm as much a better troll than you as I am smarter than you. That's quite a bit.

you see that type of crap as a win.. and i wouldnt want that.

Pot meet kettle.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:45:48 PM
yeah we are all just asking our military to kill innocents death to the innocents is what we burn them shoot them BLAH BLAH BLAH but name one military op from any major country not did not have collateral damage people make mistakes under the heat of battle but you wouldn't know that you are just another loud mouth civi with extremist views

your extremist views are not only annoying but wrong

Typical American excuses. Funny how no country in history has achieved the collateral damage the US has. You've even killed soldiers that were your allies.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 08:52:10 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_0C7GlBl4s4/Tl4odd5r7UI/AAAAAAAAA5A/hTC-A57twxc/s1600/shipmentoffail.jpg)

(http://i1.huffpost.com/gen/2449410/images/n-CANADIAN-FORCES-large.jpg)

entire canadian army right there lol

(http://www.slightlyqualified.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/canada4.jpg)

not really that bad but hell i dont give a fun lol

(http://www.motivateusnot.com/resize.php?name=LzM3OC9BbC1RQUVEQSdTLWRheXMtYXJlLW51bWJlcmVkLUNhbmFkaWFuLXRyb29wcy1oYXZlLWFycml2ZWQuanBn&w=550&h=1200)

(http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/1001/the-canadian-army-canada-demotivational-poster-1264796044.jpg)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 08:52:58 PM
When you stopped attempting to make arguments and switched gears to trolling, you lost. No more effort on my part is required. Projection!!!!!!!!!! I was using fact, well established long written undeniable FACT, you needed to put a spin, misquote, outright lie, then switched to trolling.. i saw it early on, you fall into a pattern of, saying things like "no, you are wrong" "projection" etc without any basis

Then we'll be here a looooong time. Because I'm as much a better troll than you as I am smarter than you. That's quite a bit. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA and then you woke up, tell me again how Scientific Theory is a process in the natural world, or how Theory is fact and cannot and will never be disproved, please :D

Pot meet kettle. You're the one still posting, without substance, without argument, without so much as a whiff of common sense, you're the only person that could be seen as having some need to "win" without actually obtaining it in any force of argument.
[/color]
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 08:54:06 PM
Typical American excuses. Funny how no country in history has achieved the collateral damage the US has. You've even killed soldiers that were your allies.

accidental deaths that led to nothing hmmmm just talking out yer ass like always
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 08:59:08 PM
Projection!!!!!!!!!! I was using fact, well established long written undeniable FACT, you needed to put a spin, misquote, outright lie, then switched to trolling.. i saw it early on, you fall into a pattern of, saying things like "no, you are wrong" "projection" etc without any basis

Bullshit. You had barely any facts at all, and YOU were the one who started misquoting. Like Einstein EVER believed in a god the way the term is commonly used, or the way we were discussing it. Absolutely ridiculous. This is why fame sucks: Idiots make claims about your beliefs that aren't remotely true long after you're dead and you can't call them out on it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA and then you woke up, tell me again how Scientific Theory is a process in the natural world, or how Theory is fact and cannot and will never be disproved, please

Read the links. And stop making shit up while you're at it. ;)

You're the one still posting, without substance, without argument, without so much as a whiff of common sense, you're the only person that could be seen as having some need to "win" without actually obtaining it in any force of argument.

Projection. *YAWN*
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 24, 2015, 09:00:40 PM
(http://militaryhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/military-humor-funny-us-marines-what-think-i-do-meme.jpg)

(http://s2.storage.snapzu.com/3e/61/76/9b/fonzi9785/snaps/37/d7/34227/modules/33285/1/9d699a725b4a36df_large.jpg)

(http://img.memecdn.com/global-warming-and-the-canadian-forces-are-at-odds-these-days_o_3991493.jpg)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 09:00:52 PM
accidental deaths that led to nothing hmmmm just talking out yer ass like always

Oh right the only people affected when you do air strikes on your allies are your allies, and they don't matter. Only Americans matter. And you wonder why the world hates you. ::)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 09:12:22 PM
Bullshit. You had barely any facts at all not true, I continually gave evidence to support my claims, and then argued your petty childish ignorant attempts to undermine hundreds of years worth of research,

and YOU were the one who started misquoting. Like Einstein EVER believed in a god the way the term is commonly used, or the way we were discussing it.again lies from you, you tried to claim the quote I gave originally was from an atheist that was using metaphors, I proved that wrong by giving the original quote, and then giving you an entire history of Einsteins religious beliefs, but again this (the red part) is you distorting what happened, using deliberate misinterpretation of events to try and further your cause, which really is ridiculous since the damn stuff is a few pages backwards, hardly worth the effort to prove wrong, you've also generalised, lied and changed the meaning of a well known quote

Absolutely ridiculous. This is why fame sucks: Idiots make claims about your beliefs that aren't remotely true long after you're dead and you can't call them out on it. Einstein was very vocal on his beliefs, I never once said he believed in god, I did however infer he believed in a higher power, which he himself recognised as not only possible but probable (quoted fact), it is you, who tried to misquote Einstein into being an atheist, which he himself repeatedly stated he was not.

Read the links. And stop making shit up while you're at it. ;) The only person making shit up, is you.. i've categorically used your words or my words to formulate responses, then i've given evidence to support those responses, to which you've lied, trolled, misquoted, brought out of context information, and continued with what is apparently a fools errand of being right even when wrong.. give up, you arent winning, you're just looking a fool.

Projection. *YAWN* See, no substance, no evidence, no argument just a fools repetitive jargon, that i wonder if he even knows the real meaning of, did someone teach you that word a short while ago? is it new and need to be used often? poor kiddy
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 09:22:49 PM
not true, I continually gave evidence to support my claims, and then argued your petty childish ignorant attempts to undermine hundreds of years worth of research,

Not true. I gave evidence to support my claims and discredited your arguments completely.

again lies from you, you tried to claim the quote I gave originally was from an atheist that was using metaphors, I proved that wrong by giving the original quote, and then giving you an entire history of Einsteins religious beliefs, but again this (the red part) is you distorting what happened, using deliberate misinterpretation of events to try and further your cause, which really is ridiculous since the damn stuff is a few pages backwards, hardly worth the effort to prove wrong, you've also generalised, lied and changed the meaning of a well known quote.

More lies from you. The gods we were discussing had no relevance to Einsteins concept of god, and you yourself proved as much with a quote you posted. Einstein constantly ridiculed christianity and judaism, and considered their concept of god as childish. Go smoke another one.

Einstein was very vocal on his beliefs, I never once said he believed in god, I did however infer he believed in a higher power, which he himself recognised as not only possible but probable (quoted fact), it is you, who tried to misquote Einstein into being an atheist, which he himself repeatedly stated he was not.

Even more lies:
I think you either missed my point, or went off on your own here. It's well known that some of the most venerated scientists were indeed believers in religion. I cant remember who or the exact quote, but a well known physicist said something like "The more we find in science, the closer I feel to God"

You specifically stated that many scientists believe in god, and then used an Einstein quote to back up your claim. You're pathetically out of your league little one.

The only person making shit up, is you.. i've categorically used your words or my words to formulate responses, then i've given evidence to support those responses, to which you've lied, trolled, misquoted, brought out of context information, and continued with what is apparently a fools errand of being right even when wrong.. give up, you arent winning, you're just looking a fool.

Lies and projections.

See, no substance, no evidence, no argument just a fools repetitive jargon, that i wonder if he even knows the real meaning of, did someone teach you that word a short while ago? is it new and need to be used often? poor kiddy

Lies and projections.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 09:36:49 PM
Not true. I gave evidence to support my claims and discredited your arguments completely.

No you gave a word here, or a word there, that was pulled out of context and or manipulated by your distorted reasoning.. that's not evidence.. you discredited no-one but yourself.

More lies from you. The gods we were discussing had no relevance to Einsteins concept of god, and you yourself proved as much with a quote you posted. Einstein constantly ridiculed christianity and judaism, and considered their concept of god as childish. Go smoke another one.

No, thats your distorted reasoning again.. not only did I not specify a god, I actually stated religion, not god. NOOOOOOOO again, the misquote you posted, where you tried to turn Einstein into an Atheist, is what you're talking about.. Einstein ridiculed religion, not the existence of a higher power, that is the true extent of what he meant by use of the word god is childlike, he meant the god of religions, and even went further in other quotes to specify exactly what he mean... Einstein frequently was recorded accepting that there may well be a god that's outside of our awareness or understanding.

Even more lies:
You specifically stated that many scientists believe in god, and then used an Einstein quote to back up your claim. You're pathetically out of your league little one.

No, I specifically stated that many scientists believed in religion.. which they do, even now, i can post a thousand quotes from well known scientists, but that'll never change your mind.. as it didnt the first time i tried to sway you with fact. I didnt even know the quote I was giving was from Einstein at the time of posting, as it shows in the statement I made, So that's a load of b.s. you keep telling yourself you're right, its fun to keep bashing your fragile little ego into more of this.....

Lies and projections. .... and this

Lies and projections. ....get the picture yet.. all you have is lies and unsubstantiated B.S. that any casual passer-by can see as false.. Try coming at me from reality, you'd at least have a chance of learning something.. maybe after several years of having your opinions continually smashed apart, you'll be able to contribute significantly
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 09:41:19 PM
No you gave a word here, or a word there, that was pulled out of context and or manipulated by your distorted reasoning.. that's not evidence.. you discredited no-one but yourself.

^Describes only himself.

No, thats your distorted reasoning again.. not only did I not specify a god, I actually stated religion, not god. NOOOOOOOO again, the misquote you posted, where you tried to turn Einstein into an Atheist, is what you're talking about.. Einstein ridiculed religion, not the existence of a higher power, that is the true extent of what he meant by use of the word god is childlike, he meant the god of religions, and even went further in other quotes to specify exactly what he mean... Einstein frequently was recorded accepting that there may well be a god that's outside of our awareness or understanding.

^Still doesn't know what an atheist is, and therefore just a completely ridiculous attempt to make an argument.

No, I specifically stated that many scientists believed in religion.. which they do, even now, i cant post a thousand quotes from well known scientists, but that'll never change your mind.. as it didnt the first time i tried to sway you with fact. I didnt even know the quote I was giving was from Einstein at the time of posting, as it shows in the statement I made, So that's a load of b.s. you keep telling yourself you're right, its fun to keep bashing your fragile little ego into more of this.....

^Tries to change written history. Fails.

get the picture yet.. all you have is lies and unsubstantiated B.S. that any casual passer-by can see as false.. Try coming at me from reality, you'd at least have a chance of learning something.. maybe after several years of having your opinions continually smashed apart, you'll be able to contribute significantly

Lies and projections.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 09:49:57 PM
^Describes only himself.  Unsubstantiated B.S.

^Still doesn't know what an atheist is, and therefore just a completely ridiculous attempt to make an argument.

Obviously a projection.. you didnt know the difference, since you tried to make Einstein an atheist even after being shown him saying he wasn't one. Much like the projection, that I somehow didnt know the meaning of theory, when it was you displaying the lack of knowledge and common sense.. i mean seriously dude, the clues in the title.. theory is not fact

^Tries to change written history. Fails. no, thats what you did..and if i did it, you'd be the first person to quote it as a victory.. but you cant, however.. watch

I think you either missed my point, or went off on your own here. It's well known that some of the most venerated scientists were indeed believers in religion. I cant remember who or the exact quote, but a well known physicist said something like "The more we find in science, the closer I feel to God"

Then you replied this this with

And that scientist was an atheist, who used the term god as a metaphor so everyone could easily understand his awe. I use the term too on occasion, that doesn't make me a believer. It's part of English. It's literally impossible to grow up without hearing or using it in a English speaking area.

A completely fabricated unsubstantiated piece of garbage, that you made up on the spot, to try and win a point, probably betting on the fact i wouldnt challenge it.. well i did..

“The more I study science, the more I believe in God.”

–Albert Einstein (at best, Einstein was agnostic (which is neither belief nor disbelieve in God, but he repeatedly and undeniably denied being atheist, going as far as to mock them on many occasions)


This one is just for you...

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ – cannot hear the music of the spheres.”

—Albert Einstein

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 10:19:57 PM
Unsubstantiated B.S.

Butthurt lie.

Obviously a projection.. you didnt know the difference, since you tried to make Einstein an atheist even after being shown him saying he wasn't one. Much like the projection, that I somehow didnt know the meaning of theory, when it was you displaying the lack of knowledge and common sense.. i mean seriously dude, the clues in the title.. theory is not fact

You STILL don't know what an atheist is, and you STILL don't know what a scientific theory is.

no, thats what you did..and if i did it, you'd be the first person to quote it as a victory.. but you cant, however.. watch

Read it again. Either your reading comprehension sucks horribly, or your ability to get a point across while writing does. I just had 4 different people read that quote (without any of them being informed about our little discussion to avoid bias), and they all read it the same way: You claiming that Einstein believed in god. ::)

The part you coloured in red is a strawman I thus far ignored to spare you even more embarrassment, but since you insist on making the claim repeatedly I'll point out I never said a scientist can't believe in god. In fact, I specifically noted that only a fool would believe science and religion are completely incompatible.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 10:44:50 PM
Butthurt lie.  again unsubstantiated B.S.

You STILL don't know what an atheist is, and you STILL don't know what a scientific theory is.

I know perfectly well what they are, its you who has been proven not to.. you cant claim someone is an atheist, when they themselves stated categorically, they aren't .. and then say the person who showed you the quote doesnt know what atheist means because at some point you could have a point with some other person we arent speaking about.. that's illogical nonsense.

Neither can you state, that a theory is a process in the natural world, and will never be and cannot be disproved, when the definition we both quoted, states otherwise.. you fail hard.. like i've never seen before, and this is obvious trolling, because your ego has been hurt.. you arent as clever as you think you are, and this poor kiddy, is a defeat, whether you accept it or not

Read it again. Either your reading comprehension sucks horribly, or your ability to get a point across while writing does. I just had 4 different people read that quote (without any of them being informed about our little discussion to avoid bias), and they all read it the same way: You claiming that Einstein believed in god. ::)

B.S. prove it, you've either misquoted, or you've done a usual Vastet, and made that shit up.. because nowhere, have I claimed Einstein is anything but agnostic.. even if you wanted to say, hey it followed the other statement about scientists believing in religion, so you must have been speaking about the same thing, Einstein wasnt named.. and as soon as i found out it was Einstein i knew who he was and his religious beliefs. as stated very clearly..

it was you that jumped the gun, claimed the scientist was atheist

The part you coloured in red is a strawman I thus far ignored to spare you even more embarrassment, but since you insist on making the claim repeatedly I'll point out I never said a scientist can't believe in god. In fact, I specifically noted that only a fool would believe science and religion are completely incompatible.

how is this even remotely relevant? I never stated you said that either. You tried to claim i stated that scientists believed in god originally, when i challenged that you tried to say i was changing written history hence the red enveloping the part where i said religion.

Me quoting other peoples words, is not me saying they said it, its them saying they said it.. unless i do a you, and change the context and or quotes to suit my needs


now child.. learn to follow an argument properly or get lost.. either way.. you lost..
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 11:00:50 PM
^ Butthurt lies, strawmen, and projections. I've already proved as much, and I'm not big on repeating paragraphs that people are too stupid to understand the first few times. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 11:02:06 PM
^ Butthurt lies and projections. I've already proved as much, and I'm not big on repeating paragraphs that people are too stupid to understand the first few times. 8)

You mean you have no answer to any of the points, you have no proof so all you can do is throw unsubstantiated B.S. my way.. yep you lost.. hows it feel??

Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 11:03:52 PM
You mean you have no answer to any of the points, you have no proof so all you can do is throw unsubstantiated B.S. my way.. yep you lost.. hows it feel??

You lost two pages ago when you couldn't answer my arguments and went full troll. Look in the mirror when you ask how it feels. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 11:07:01 PM
You lost two pages ago when you couldn't answer my arguments and went full troll. Look in the mirror when you ask how it feels. 8)

hahahaha.. no dude.. you lost the moment you opened your mouth with an opinion which wasnt supported in any way and said Einstein was an atheist, and Scientific theory has never been disproved.

and then continued to try and argue your point even when wrong..

I got bored of your incessant trolling for a moment, til i realised thats what you wanted.. so i continued.. big difference..
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 11:08:08 PM
hahahaha.. no dude.. you lost the moment you opened your mouth with an opinion which wasnt supported in any way and said Einstein was an atheist, and Scientific theory has never been disproved.

and then continued to try and argue your point even when wrong..

I got bored of your incessant trolling for a moment, til i realised thats what you wanted.. so i continued.. big difference..

^ Poor baby is too ignorant to comprehend the depth of his failure. 8)

Added quote in case he tries to pull a Grace. It would be a shame to lose the comedic gold mine. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 11:10:15 PM
^ Poor baby is too ignorant to comprehend the depth of his failure. 8)

Wow, now there's some classic projection if ever i saw it.. i mean we've had pages and pages of you pretending to know what you're talking about, and the original problem with the debate, YOUR INACCURACIES, has been lost under the weight of your B.S.

but dont worry.. i'll keep reminding you.. funny as hell man.. you're sooo clever really.. it makes me laugh just thinking about you professing to know all, with that retarded mind of yours
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 11:11:12 PM
Wow, now there's some classic projection if ever i saw it.. i mean we've had pages and pages of you pretending to know what you're talking about, and the original problem with the debate, YOUR INACCURACIES, has been lost under the weight of your B.S.

but dont worry.. i'll keep reminding you.. funny as hell man.. you're sooo clever really.. it makes me laugh just thinking about you professing to know all, with that retarded mind of yours

^ Still projecting. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 11:16:15 PM
say it all you like man.. doesnt make it true..

much like scientific theory never being disproved, and then you turning your back on science with it shoved up your ass :D

Science is all about disproving or bettering theories.. to state otherwise is plain stupidity. That was the whole basis of my original argument, why i don't believe science works as a whole.. because one day we sit here and are suppose to believe this theory.. then tomorrow it'll be another..and another.

but we never got around to that.. your poor attempt at making yourself seem more intelligent than you actually are, backfired, which then lead to the usual vastet b.s. of making shit up, constantly claiming projection, twisting anything possible to suit his need, and what.. making himself look like an absolute dunce.

I bet you sat at the back of the class very quiet at school..
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 11:18:07 PM
say it all you like man.. doesnt make it true..

much like scientific theory never being disproved, and then you turning your back on science with it shoved up your ass :D

Science is all about disproving or bettering theories.. to state otherwise is plain stupidity. That was the whole basis of my original argument, why i don't believe science works as a whole.. because one day we sit here and are suppose to believe this theory.. then tomorrow it'll be another..and another.

but we never got around to that.. your poor attempt at making yourself seem more intelligent than you actually are, backfired, which then lead to the usual vastet b.s. of making shit up, constantly claiming projection, twisting anything possible to suit his need, and what.. making himself look like an absolute dunce.

I bet you sat at the back of the class very quiet at school..

^ Addicted to failure. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 11:21:59 PM
^ Addicted to failure. 8)

^^ I'd say projection here, but since it seems impossible for you to admit even the most abundantly clear mistakes made.. it would be hard to project failure you never believed you did.

and there lad, is game set and match, you believe more than religious people ever will.. but at least they've got others that believe the same too ..

Yours is a very lonely belief.. that has neither foundation observation, experience or evidence.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 24, 2015, 11:23:32 PM
de ja vue  8)

Tech 9, some funny pictures keep them coming. Those Canadian navy pics were class  8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 24, 2015, 11:41:30 PM
^^ I'd say projection here, but since it seems impossible for you to admit even the most abundantly clear mistakes made.. it would be hard to project failure you never believed you did.

and there lad, is game set and match, you believe more than religious people ever will.. but at least they've got others that believe the same too ..

Yours is a very lonely belief.. that has neither foundation observation, experience or evidence.

^ Blind to reality 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: von Imhof on July 24, 2015, 11:56:31 PM
de ja vue  8)

Tech 9, some funny pictures keep them coming. Those Canadian navy pics were class  8)

+1
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 24, 2015, 11:57:56 PM
^ Blind to reality 8)

Oh that's rich coming from you.. not only have I had to mediate one of your "i'm talking crap sessions" but now i've had to be a part of one too.. It's not the rest of the world you narcissistic fool, it's you!!

and before you throw the "most people who say narcissism, are themselves narcissists", i just went and looked you up.. DSM IV, you have displayed repeatedly 6 of the 9 markers associated with N.P.D. which given by a psychiatrist would get you labelled exactly that.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 25, 2015, 12:00:58 AM
Oh that's rich coming from you.. not only have I had to mediate one of your "i'm talking crap sessions" but now i've had to be a part of one too.. It's not the rest of the world you narcissistic fool, it's you!!

and before you throw the "most people who say narcissism, are themselves narcissists", i just went and looked you up.. DSM IV, you have displayed repeatedly 6 of the 9 markers associated with N.P.D. which given by a psychiatrist would get you labelled exactly that.

^ Adds narcissism to the list of terms he doesn't comprehend. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 25, 2015, 12:03:35 AM
^ Adds narcissism to the list of terms he doesn't comprehend. 8)

So anything that's aimed at you in a negative light, is either projection or bad comprehension?

Yep, you're living in fantasy-land.. keep going fella, you'll prove me right to everyone else here too.. i dont need it for myself, i know i'm right.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 25, 2015, 12:13:27 AM
So anything that's aimed at you in a negative light, is either projection or bad comprehension?

Yep, you're living in fantasy-land.. keep going fella, you'll prove me right to everyone else here too.. i dont need it for myself, i know i'm right.

^ Doesn't comprehend that narcissism is far too complicated to comprehend after a ten second google search, no matter how intelligent you are. Naming some ridiculous '9 markers' bullshit proves it. As I actually have an education in psychology, I (along with the rest of my class) often took various real tests on psychological disorders. One of those was narcissism. Sadly I scored as rather average. Poor Swan here mistakes my contempt for his ignorance as a sign I believe I'm infallible. I'd offer to diagnose him, but he's not paying me.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: censored on July 25, 2015, 12:21:55 AM
Making fun of a fool is really only enjoyable in small doses. I'm going to play a game before I get too bored. 8)
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 25, 2015, 12:26:14 AM
^ Doesn't comprehend that narcissism is far too complicated to comprehend after a ten second google search, no matter how intelligent you are. Naming some ridiculous '9 markers' bullshit proves it. As I actually have an education in psychology, I (along with the rest of my class) often took various real tests on psychological disorders. One of those was narcissism. Sadly I scored as rather average. Poor Swan here mistakes my contempt for his ignorance as a sign I believe I'm infallible. I'd offer to diagnose him, but he's not paying me.

Those 9 markers are the guidelines for every single person who ever gets diagnosed with N.P.D, The fact that you  classed them as "9 markers bullshit" means that what you just said about being trained along with the rest of your class, is bullshit.. If you had any experience in the field you'd immediately recognise the diagnostic manual for mental disorders. (exaggerated achievements & talents being your number 1 tool, and a definite marker for grandiosity)

Your contempt for me is purely egotism driven, you believe you're better than me & everyone else.. as claimed over and over without any substantiation here on this forums.. classic sign of grandiosity which is the most relevant marker for N.P.D
You continually display signs of believing you're special,
your continual reference to an audience (and i'm not the only person to state this beauty) means you crave admiration.
Every time your points are challenged you either use a classic defence technique of N.P.D which is projection (its actually quite ironic that this projection comes in the form of you calling out that people are projecting) or believe the person cannot comprehend you or the subject matter as well as you..
You show arrogant behaviour like I've never seen
You exploit others, especially here on the forums, when they coincide with your goals.

I don't expect you to agree, but please, do keep talking.. like i said, it'll just prove my point more and more, and now this is out there, everyone else will be able to see it too
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 25, 2015, 03:28:56 AM
swan, you are beating a dead horse, mate. everyone knows he is a troll and he wont relent until he gets the last word in so may as well give it to him and leave him to it.

@ everyone else

While I am not particularly pro anyone, I do pay attention to what goes on in the wider world I don't see Russia as a threat or being aggressive toward anyone. On the contrary, it is a bit rich claiming that Russia is a threat, coming from Americans of all people. If you take a look outside of your own borders for  a minute, you will find that most of the rest of the worldl actually see the US as the most aggressive nation on earth and biggest threat to world peace. They have good form and are still up to it.
Also don't confuse Russia with the soviet union. The soviet union no longer exists and Russia has every right to defend its own interests and borders. Even during the days of the cold war the soviet union always preferred the chess game and was more focused on self defence and who can blame them? They have been on gthe receiving end of western imperialism for 100s of years from nepoleon to the british empire to Nazi Germany. Whatever could be said about stalin, his concerns about the west were very real put into historical context and they are just as real today for the current administration in the kremlin. It was actually the US who destabilised Ukraine and installed their own anti Russian puppet government and they are tryig to do the very same thing in Russia itself via government funded NGOs. This is a well documented fact for which evidence is plastered all over the internet. Both the east and crimea are under no obligation to recognise that government, as it wasn't them who toppled the previous one which they voted for. As far as the reunification of crimea with RUssia goes, the peninsular is historically Russian and if you think Putin was going to allow nato to deploy their military to it, then think again. The man is not stupid and could see what you were up to.
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 25, 2015, 04:00:10 AM
swan, you are beating a dead horse, mate. everyone knows he is a troll and he wont relent until he gets the last word in so may as well give it to him and leave him to it.

That's fine, he can blow all the hot air he likes. The reason he does it that way, is because people do relent. At which point, he claims victory (I could actually quote 2 topics where he out-right states he's out-trolled every mega troll on these forums) and that in of itself is where his grandiose beliefs are given weight, to himself at least. It's rather like a child, stomping around because you didn't give them something they wanted, you don't give in, otherwise that'll be the response you get every time.

He met his match (pun intended) I've no intentions of worsening his already dire condition, call it an act of compassion if you will. I apologise now to everyone who frequents the forum.

@ everyone else

While I am not particularly pro anyone, I do pay attention to what goes on in the wider world I don't see Russia as a threat or being aggressive toward anyone. On the contrary, it is a bit rich claiming that Russia is a threat, coming from Americans of all people. If you take a look outside of your own borders for  a minute, you will find that most of the rest of the worldl actually see the US as the most aggressive nation on earth and biggest threat to world peace. They have good form and are still up to it.
Also don't confuse Russia with the soviet union. The soviet union no longer exists and Russia has every right to defend its own interests and borders. Even during the days of the cold war the soviet union always preferred the chess game and was more focused on self defence and who can blame them? They have been on gthe receiving end of western imperialism for 100s of years from nepoleon to the british empire to Nazi Germany. Whatever could be said about stalin, his concerns about the west were very real put into historical context and they are just as real today for the current administration in the kremlin. It was actually the US who destabilised Ukraine and installed their own anti Russian puppet government. This is a well documented fact for which evidence is plastered all over the internet. Both the east and crimea are under no obligation to recognise that government, as it wasn't them who toppled the previous one which they voted for. As far as the reunification of crimea with RUssia goes, the peninsular is historically Russian and if you think Putin was going to allow nato to deploy their military to it, then think again. The man is not stupid and could see what you were up to.

+ 1 to the red parts

as for the green, Crimea was part of the Ottoman Empire, until the mid to late 1700's (i might be a little off with the dates here) .. the incursion you speak of regarding the British empire, was essentially to stop Russia dominating that area at the decline of the Ottoman Empire
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Grace on July 25, 2015, 04:12:49 AM
take yourself a lil further back, Swan. It was greek and roman before it fell to the ottoman empire
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 25, 2015, 04:21:13 AM
take yourself a lil further back, Swan. It was greek and roman before it fell to the ottoman empire

I did, the Greeks, Romans and Persians all had the southern parts at one point or another, I was just pointing out the disparity in the assertion, that it was historically Russian, so only gave information pertaining to that ;)

While they've definitely owned the place in modern history, I'm not sure any one nation can assert a rightful claim to its land :D
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 25, 2015, 07:25:09 AM
a bunch a bloody whiners is what i see here i still can't believe this thread hasn't been locked yet since ya'll have gone way off topic shit where's the funing report button i'll do it myself
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Swanvesta on July 25, 2015, 08:01:52 AM
T9

Do you have a flag?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6RhIx6US6Q
Title: Re: Sad day to be KBF
Post by: Immortal Tech N9ne on July 25, 2015, 09:38:12 AM
T9

Do you have a flag?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6RhIx6US6Q

I actually have two flags

(http://easyflags.co.uk/shop/images/uploads/Site%20Doc%20Pics/union%20jack%20sewn%20flag%20united%20kingdom%20woven%20polyester%20rope%20toggle%20photo.jpg)


(http://www.politicspa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/American-Flag.jpg)

dual citizenship is the shit bro but ya'll must have thought i was just a simple american didn't you lol