Starfleet Commander Forum

Starfleet Commander => Strategy => Topic started by: Matt on January 15, 2010, 09:16:20 PM

Title: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Matt on January 15, 2010, 09:16:20 PM
I'd like to start an advanced strategy guide forum. It will be locked by default, and anyone who writes a good article here will have it moved there. I'd like to get a few articles to put there. Examples of a few:

Fleet Ratios
Defense Ratios
Mining guides
How to catch elusive opponents.
Ninjaing.

Etc.

So please if you have something you'd like to submit write it here and I'll probably start adding them to the list on Monday.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on January 16, 2010, 11:31:38 AM
There are a few I'd like to see added from the forum.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Lord Admiral Follett on January 18, 2010, 03:23:17 PM
http://http://forum.playstarfleet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3505

How about this?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: jessejericho on January 18, 2010, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: "Lord Admiral Follett"
http://http://forum.playstarfleet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3505

How about this?

Your guide is good but I think Matt is looking for individual articles on specific tactics and strategies, as opposed to an overall view.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: bryn987 on January 18, 2010, 03:37:00 PM
Wrote this for my alliance.  If you like it, I can clean it up a bit and give a good description on why its valuable.

Slow Attack (Ninja Defense counter)

A slow attack is basically a feint attack where you slow down your initial attack in order to counter the Ninja Defense.  The Ninja Defense, in case you don't know, is the strategy a defender uses in order to surprise your attacking fleet at the very last second by having their superior fleet, one that you did not know existed, show up at their planet to defend against your attack.  By slowing down your attack, you are now able to see if such a Ninja Defense is in play and can then call off your attack if needed.  Below is an example of a Ninja Defense:

(http://http://lh4.ggpht.com/_C4hhMbVFWF0/S0KYhpMrB7I/AAAAAAAADDU/tLJXejwp4fM/s800/ninja.png)

The only way the attacker in this example can save his fleet is if he slows down his attack as with just 4 seconds between my fleet returning to defend and his fleet attacking, he does not have enough time to probe and recall his fleet.  Below is a step by step guide on how to do this.


1. Launch your attack and then select Formation from the fleet screen and send an invite to yourself to join the fight.

2. Pick out one of your colonies that is farthermost away from the planet you are attacking and go through the motions of launching a probe at the planet with a reduced speed to get you in the 5 minute range. For this example, lets say this "slow probe" will hit in -5:32.

3. Next, we need to find out when we need to launch the slow probe. You can only slow an attack by 30% so as our probe is -5:32, then roughly we need to launch it when our attack fleet is about 4 minutes away.

4. So, what does this extra minute and 20 seconds gets us you may ask? Plenty. In that extra 1:20, you can launch normal, fast probes at the enemy to see if all of a sudden, a massive fleet is now waiting on you. If so, you can recall your fleet and save it. Most good attackers constantly probe up to the last minute of their attack looking for surprise fleets so defenders have their fleet return mere seconds before the attack hits in order to avoid the probes. But they can't avoid the slow attack. In this extra 1 minute and 20 seconds, you should be able to launch 3 probes, read the espionage reports and recall your fleet if needed.

5. As we only have a 1:20 to discover surprise fleets, we need to launch our fast probes perfectly. So, we need to find out the time it takes the fast probe to hit and when to launch it.

6. The way to get this is I wait until my original attack is exactly 1 hour away and then make note of the game clock. In this example, my fleet will hit at 18:05:37 (this is the original attack time and not the final attack time so take note) You can calculate it anytime you want but at exactly 1 hour away, its easier and you still have plenty of time so you are not rushed.  The game clock does not count down the way the fleet timer does so at about 1 second till your time mark, click on the fleet tab and that will re-fresh the game clock.

7. Go back to your original planet you are attacking from and get the time it takes a probe to hit at 100% speed. Lets say this speed is .59

8. Now, take the original attack time, subtract the fast probe and we get this: 18:05:37 - .59 = 18:04:36 (as a caution, give your self 1-2 seconds to make up for lag etc etc)

9. So, as soon as the game clock hits 18:04:36, launch your fast probes. I would launch 1, wait 20 seconds or so then launch a 2nd, wait a bit then launch a 3rdetc etc. Now your probe will hit about 1 second after your fleet would have hit if you had not slowed it down and now you can see if there are any surprise fleets waiting on you.
If all looks the same as your original espionage reports, then you are safe to attack. If a big fleet has all of a sudden appeared, recall your fleet if you can't win.

There are couple of things the defender can do to counter your slow attack but it takes a lot of luck and will be very hard to pull off in just 1-3 minutes:

1.  They can have multiple Ninja defenses where 1 wave would return right before your original attack time, another wave would return 15 seconds or so after your original attack time and maybe even a third would return 15 seconds after the 2nd wave in order to still ninja you at your new attack time.  This would basically take luck to pull off in that all your probes would have to miss these waves in order for it to work and they would also have to keep re-deploying their waves so your incoming probes don't see them.  Also, each individual wave would have to be able to beat your fleet on it's on which would take an enormous amount of ships.
2.  They could also try to counter your slow attack by having their fleet return about 10 seconds before your original attack time, and then quickly do a deploy/recall move in order to bypass your first "fast probe".  Again, if you send a couple fast probes to hit right before your original attack time and a couple of probes right after-wards, you should be able to catch them most of the time.

The slow attack may not be 100% unbeatable, but using it does increase your odds of success
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: fornov on January 18, 2010, 05:59:42 PM
You can counter this by sending two separate group defend fleets - one to arrive a few seconds before the attack is supposed to land, and a second one to arrive a minute after the attack lands.

If a player slows the attack and probes, you can recall the first defending fleet.  The second one will still arrive in time to successfully defend.  You would probably do this with two separate defenders, but if your defending fleet is large enough, one player could do it.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: bryn987 on January 18, 2010, 06:36:39 PM
Quote from: "fornov"
You can counter this by sending two separate group defend fleets - one to arrive a few seconds before the attack is supposed to land, and a second one to arrive a minute after the attack lands.

If a player slows the attack and probes, you can recall the first defending fleet.  The second one will still arrive in time to successfully defend.  You would probably do this with two separate defenders, but if your defending fleet is large enough, one player could do it.

Good point.

You would have to have 2 separate fleets where each one would be strong enough to beat the attacker on it's own.  You also have to avoid last minute probes that would come in before the original attack time as well as avoid probes that come in between the original attack time and the new attack time.

Very hard to do and would basically take luck to pull off.  I usually get my very last probe to hit about 10-15 seconds before my new attack time hits so you would have to get very lucky that your 2nd fleet lands in that 10-15 second window.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Matt on January 18, 2010, 06:39:08 PM
I'll move your post over to the forum bryn.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Catfish on January 18, 2010, 06:39:44 PM
@byrn987's signature
You hit another player so hard, they were too high ranked for you to attack? How much fodder did you throw at them? That capitol "N" is an important distinction.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: bryn987 on January 18, 2010, 06:44:02 PM
Quote from: "Catfish"
@byrn987's signature
You hit another player so hard, they were too high ranked for you to attack? How much fodder did you throw at them? That capitol "N" is an important distinction.

woops, good catch Catfish

Thanks Matt
Can I edit it once it's moved?  I'd like to clean it up a bit and describe why this is a useful tactic
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on January 18, 2010, 09:23:00 PM
Nice idea but it's not that useful.  In the case where you do continue with an attack in which the defender has returned and you don't recall you can probe 10 seconds before easily unless you need to run another battle sim and those last 10 seconds are only going to get reinforced if the defender or his alliance has the ability to defend it and uses a communication method outside the normal game and was good enough to decide to defend it up to 10s before it hit.  I have yet to ever hear of an attacker who probed 10s before and was owned because a group defend took place let alone and you also have to factor in the extra time, fleet spot, and possible extra time you gave the defender to get on his computer and dodge it, also I have seen several instances where alliance members mess up the time and then just go afk having their group defend land late.  I'll be sure to add some stuff later since I like writing about strategy.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Matt on January 18, 2010, 09:59:47 PM
Quote from: "bryn987"
Quote from: "Catfish"
@byrn987's signature
You hit another player so hard, they were too high ranked for you to attack? How much fodder did you throw at them? That capitol "N" is an important distinction.

woops, good catch Catfish

Thanks Matt
Can I edit it once it's moved?  I'd like to clean it up a bit and describe why this is a useful tactic

Do you mind posting it as its own thread somewhere, edited and cleaned up? Then I can just move the whole thread over.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: bryn987 on January 19, 2010, 03:32:26 AM
Quote from: "Matt"
Quote from: "bryn987"
Quote from: "Catfish"
@byrn987's signature
You hit another player so hard, they were too high ranked for you to attack? How much fodder did you throw at them? That capitol "N" is an important distinction.

woops, good catch Catfish

Thanks Matt
Can I edit it once it's moved?  I'd like to clean it up a bit and describe why this is a useful tactic

Do you mind posting it as its own thread somewhere, edited and cleaned up? Then I can just move the whole thread over.

I edited the original post
Title: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
Post by: azzaron on January 19, 2010, 05:42:52 AM
I have created a thread discussing strategies for building up your defenses:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3773 (http://forum.playstarfleet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3773)

Since you talked about moving threads into the new forum, I figured you wanted it as a separate thread. If you would prefer it here, I can always copy it in...
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: sfman on January 19, 2010, 08:35:36 AM
How about including some files like laggy's flight sim? maybe in another thread?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on January 19, 2010, 08:51:14 AM
What's the flight sim?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: sfman on January 19, 2010, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
What's the flight sim?

It's an excel file which calculates flight times given techs, ships, source and destination.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Matt on January 19, 2010, 05:39:27 PM
Quote from: "bryn987"
I edited the original post

I don't think I can move just a post from this thread over. Can you just paste the BB code into a separate thread? Then I can move that.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on January 19, 2010, 07:32:50 PM
My advice is going to assume that you play for over an hour a day and are intelligent enough to play aggressive without continually making big mistakes because while most players play defensive playing aggressive is the best way to gain ranks and resources.  Playing aggressive does not mean attacking players you will take big losses against, you should always know from battlecalc.com how much debris and resources you will gain versus what you will lose.  I've only been playing for 7 weeks and I'm rank 40 on destroyed ships so I actually have used and tested this stuff out.

Fleets and Fleet Ratios
Fleet ratios are a dumb concept because it overly generalizes what you’re supposed to build and it gives the implication that having a lot of everything is good.  Having said that I use a fleet ratio of about 100 artemis, 100 athena, 80 hades.  The goal is always to obtain the most resources while losing the least and to do that you will want the largest ships possible in order to receive 0-5% losses when attacking.  This makes Hades usually the best ship to build because Prometheus are too slow and hydro expensive.   A good player will actually manage his ships well enough that Athena and Prometheus will spend more over their lifetime in hydro than the hydro cost to build a Hades.  However when you build tons of Hades you will create a mass of ore that’s wasted if you don’t spend it so build Athena, batteries, trade.  Also many people don’t have the tech for Hades yet, in which case you want to build some 50 Poseidon or up to a 100 Athena to raid with as they will allow you to fleet smash and plunder with the smallest casualties.  You will need some fodder typically artemis once your producing Athena/Hades, however many people talk as though fodder is a requirement punishable by death, fodder usually increases your losses against the weaker opponents you should be targeting.

Fodder
You use fodder under 3 main circumstances, when you’re going to suffer decent losses(greater than  10%) so you just want to throw everything at them, when the enemy has lots of high damage ships/defenses which can take out your big ships in 1 or 2 hits, or because you want to limit the rapid fire on your big ships usually because your sending Athena and they have Hades.  You can play around with battlecalc to see if you should send fodder or how much.   ¾ of my attacks I do not send fodder,  I attack someone that’s much weaker say a 30 dino fleet hopefully composed of little Gauss/Athena or bigger ships and 3 tech levels below me and then I send as many Hades as I can or need to and then fill in the rest with Athena to the point at which I carry everything back or have enough to smash them without taking a single loss.

Defense and Defense Ratios
Defenses are pretty bad, I only use 15 batteries on each planet.  Oddly enough I’ve still been hit with 20 nukes.  Fleet/resource saving is much better however if you’re too lazy, don’t think you need to, or want to protect small resources of a colony or homeworld overnight batteries make great fodder and are the best for an opponent who is taking heavy >20% losses unless you’re in the stage where Poseidon’s are common in which case you want laser cannons.  If the person attacking you has overpowered you completely and is going to take <5% losses the best defense would be gauss or plasma because those guns concentrated firepower are scary to someone powerful who is smart enough to send only a big ship fleet and use battlecalc to find out they will lose several Poseidon/Athena/Hades.  You should spend about as much resources on batteries/cannons as you do on gauss/plasma.

Techs
If you often attack and get away with <5% losses you should do hull then weapon then shield but if you often lose more ships being attacked or don’t usually get away with <5% losses you should do weapon then hull then shield and either way you should keep them the same level with shield possibly 1 level lower.  Most people do not have high enough techs.  The point at which you should upgrade is when (TotalResourceCostOfUpgrade/TotalResourceCostOfShipsAndDefences ) is smaller than (1-(1+.1*CurrentTechLevel)/(1+.1*(CurrentTechLevel+1)))*.4.  I know right that formula is some scary shit but it is the percentage of cost vs benefit and both will be less than 9% you just have to compare them.

Mines and Hydro End Game
In order for a high lvl 20 mine to pay for itself plus its energy cost it takes over a month.  A dionysis on the other hand can pay for itself in just a few hours.  I can make resources a lot faster by using a massive fleet of ships and dinos but hydro becomes a huge problem.  Once you have 500 big ships it’s easy to make lots of points and millions of ore and crystal fleet smashing and difficult to afford the hydro because dino’s don’t collect it and moving huge fleets costs a lot.

Catching Opponents
You should never attack or even scan someone when they are awake unless you know what your doing.  During the night the chances to land attacks are way higher, it's especially high if I take a look at a prime target every few hours for a couple days until I can tell when he goes to bed.

Moving Fleet Colonization
Putting a bunch of colonies right by your homeworld might be nice for protection and transportation but it puts a big ass target on yourself for other players, lets them find out easily when your sleeping, and limits how many people you can farm.  After a month protecting small amounts of resources and ships that get built doesn't matter much, it will become increasingly more difficult to find people to farm, and protecting your fleet becomes priority number 1.  In order to maximize farm while minimizing hydro usage it would be extremely good to place 3 colonies in your homeworld galaxy 100 apart and then 5 in an adjacent galaxy at 50, 150, 250, 350, 450.   You can then move your fleet and resources around in a circle overnight farming the people in that area for a few days and then moving on to the next area,  if your farms become too small for the size of your fleet you can break it up into 2 forces or 3 forces while circling around.  Using shipyards on your colonies are much cheaper than making 1 high level shipyard, upgrading a foundry, and continually transporting resources to it anyway.  Build hydro efficient ships, moving around a lot makes it way easier to farm and protect yourself but costs a lot of hydro.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: bryn987 on January 19, 2010, 07:36:33 PM
Quote from: "Matt"
Quote from: "bryn987"
I edited the original post

I don't think I can move just a post from this thread over. Can you just paste the BB code into a separate thread? Then I can move that.

Created a Dear Matt post  :lol:  :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3802 (http://forum.playstarfleet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3802)
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Cloak72 on January 23, 2010, 02:32:19 AM
Quote from: "Matt"
Quote from: "bryn987"
I edited the original post

I don't think I can move just a post from this thread over. Can you just paste the BB code into a separate thread? Then I can move that.
You should be able to split a post.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: saryne on January 31, 2010, 06:25:54 PM
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
Having said that I use a fleet ratio of about 100 artemis, 100 athena, 80 hades.  Many people talk as though fodder is a requirement punishable by death, fodder usually increases your losses against the weaker opponents you should be targeting.

Fodder is useful for large minor defenses and a few heavy guns. Otherwise just send bigger ships. As to colonies 100 systems only? If they get around to introducing phalanx then you'll want at least 200 systems between planets. Add in fleet saving and progressively faster ships you'll be happy you have 200 systems so you can sleep :) As to your ratio of ships I think that's a personal choice on how you want to raid. If you're going after turtles then the Artemis count needs to be upped significantly. If you're going for big guns and minor small defenses then you want fire power.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 01, 2010, 06:32:01 AM
Quote from: "saryne"
Fodder is useful for large minor defenses and a few heavy guns.

No, it's the complete opposite.  Imagine if they only have 500 batteries you can just send 200 athena and take no loss.  If they have only 20 plasma cannons or proms you want to send 1500 artemis rather than 200 athena to take much smaller losses.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 01, 2010, 08:52:26 AM
blaah
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: saryne on February 01, 2010, 10:01:30 AM
No, that's right. 500 missiles isn't large it's small. 4000 would be medium, 15k would be large. If you have enough artemis to take that out you're a long way into the game. However 15k missiles and 10 plasma can do a lot of damage, so lots of artemis, dozens of cruisers and some big boys would be needed to get through while taking minimal (or quickly rebuildable) ships.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on February 01, 2010, 11:22:05 AM
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
Fleets and Fleet Ratios
Fleet ratios are a dumb concept because it overly generalizes what you’re supposed to build and it gives the implication that having a lot of everything is good.  Having said that I use a fleet ratio of about 100 artemis, 100 athena, 80 hades.  

You have a very unbalanced fleet...

It is better to have a balanced fleet, where you are able to take advantage in any given situation..
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 01, 2010, 08:46:58 PM
Adding more batteries is the same thing with larger proportions.  I can prove it with the simulator do 1000 athena vs 4000 batteries 5 plasma attacker techs 12 defender techs 10.  You take less than 1.5mil losses but if you send 4000 artemis 730 athena you take over 8.5mil in losses, 6 times as much.

Balanced fleets are not better, partly because some ships will slow you down and speed is paramount, partly because you cannot often find tasks where you need a bunch of medium size ships because the enemy only built 500 atlas or 500 artemis, and mainly because small/medium ships increase your losses against opponents which you overpower greatly.  If I put every resource into building hades I can attack a lot of smaller targets with no losses, if you build a balanced fleet you will continue to lose small ships until later you will have a much weaker fleet.  Balanced fleets remind me of the even worse idea of taking your fleet and separating it between all of your colonies to balance out your power and protect yourself against weaker opponents.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on February 01, 2010, 11:00:00 PM
You have missed the point.

What I mean by a balanced fleet, is your entire inventory.

You have x amount of each type of ship, the ratios of which, you can workout for yourself.

If you only need to send in a few Artemis for a job then you use that, but if you have a target has a large defence plus a sizeable fleet sitting on it then you will need to use, a good mix of ships in the attack, Destroyers for packing a big punch, bombers for taking out fodder defence, battleships for a secondary punch, battlecruisers for High level fodder killing including battleships, cruisers for fodder killing and as fodder, and both types of fighter fodder in high numbers for killing high level defence and chaffe for your big ships.

If you don't develop a fleet that can be used in a variety roles, then you are doomed to be only chasing neiche targets.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Xight on February 01, 2010, 11:04:43 PM
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
Adding more batteries is the same thing with larger proportions.  I can prove it with the simulator do 1000 athena vs 4000 batteries 5 plasma attacker techs 12 defender techs 10.  You take less than 1.5mil losses but if you send 4000 artemis 730 athena you take over 8.5mil in losses, 6 times as much.

Balanced fleets are not better, partly because some ships will slow you down and speed is paramount, partly because you cannot often find tasks where you need a bunch of medium size ships because the enemy only built 500 atlas or 500 artemis, and mainly because small/medium ships increase your losses against opponents which you overpower greatly.  If I put every resource into building hades I can attack a lot of smaller targets with no losses, if you build a balanced fleet you will continue to lose small ships until later you will have a much weaker fleet.  Balanced fleets remind me of the even worse idea of taking your fleet and separating it between all of your colonies to balance out your power and protect yourself against weaker opponents.

Against 4000 missile Send ares/poseidons.  Even an Poseidon/athena count of 500 pos/500 athena will be only 500k in losses.  I'm pretty sure someone who builds a balanced fleet will be able to take advantage of someone stacking defense like that pretty easily.  

Against your fleet if I were to spend the same amount of res all the time, I would always take half your losses.  

Just because you have a balanced fleet doesn't mean that you send everything to everyone.  It means you have available to you ships in good rations to attack someone with the least amount of losses to you.  It also means that you can take out someone who's equal or stronger than you if they were dumb enough to just stack a few ship types.  

Only downside to a balanced fleet is the sheer time it takes to build up the fodder ships.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 02, 2010, 12:22:12 AM
The question was never what to send against 4000 batteries it was just an example to prove big ships without fodder suffer lower losses against fodder when they overpower it.  Someone who builds a balanced fleet will not take this out easier, they will have a bunch of artemis and apollo that will increase losses, slow ares and proms they will slow the attack and so usually are bad to send, so it will be harder for them than for someone who built mass athena/hades.

Obviously against a big ship fleet a fleet that has more fodder would take less losses but you don't fight people who are your own size regardless of big ship or fodder fleet because taking massive losses is extremely bad.

Of course your not sending everything to everyone that would be even dumber than building a little bit of everything.  Against the people you are attacking your typically as weak as your weakest ship, as slow as your slowest ship they determine whether u get there fast or take almost no losses.  Having 50 of every ship does not beat having 200 hades sending them in against a fleet dropping 30 dinos and not taking a single loss because the attack was fast and big.  I could prove this by going from rank 34 destroyed ships to rank 1 but I don't have the time to play this game that much.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 02, 2010, 12:37:14 AM
Sending strong ships against weak defenses (missiles/lasers) will result in less losses. The same goes for sending weak ships against strong defenses (gauss/plasma).

Now how's about making a thread for this of its own, or rather make a guide on the subject and quit bantering over who is slightly more obtuse to writing errors.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 02, 2010, 06:56:16 AM
You are more doomed to niche targets with a balanced fleet, there is nothing a 200 hades fleet cannot attack that a balanced fleet of everything with the same resources can while maintaining low losses.  However there are a lot of large targets in which you will lose more resources attacking with some combination of your balanced fleet.

You may have a lot of experience horseman from the battle from the other game but that doesn't mean you know more of what your doing, the skill component is all math simulation.  In the report of thousands of ships you sent me you greatly overpowered your enemy and you would have taken much smaller losses had you only sent large ships.  I can prove it in the simulator while reducing the amounts by a factor of 10.

http://www.battlecalc.com/?runsimulatio ... m=Simulate (http://www.battlecalc.com/?runsimulation=runsimulation&attship1=&defship1=120&defship14=62&attship2=&defship2=&attship3=&defship3=30&attship4=1159&defship4=209&attship5=96&defship5=78&attship6=&defship6=7&attship7=106&defship7=5&attship8=&defship8=1&attship9=103&defship9=1&attship10=&defship10=1&attship11=61&defship11=1&attship12=26&defship12=2&attship13=&defship13=&attship15=&defship15=&defens1=303&defens2=100&defens3=35&defens4=5&defens5=4&defens6=3&defens7=1&defens8=1&attweapon=15&defweapon=10&attshield=15&defshield=10&attarmour=15&defarmour=10&num_simulations=10&sim=Simulate)

Now you lose about 7.5million resources but if we take the art, apollo, poseidon and convert them to hades with a 2.5 ore to hydro ratio and 1.5 ore to crystal ratio you end up with 85 extra hades and no art/apollo/pos and when you rerun the simulation you only lose 3million resources.

Here's a challenge, try to find a case where this doesn't happen since this is the norm.  Make a moderate fleet/defense, then pick a balanced fleet to attack it where you lose less than 10% of your resources, then convert the resources of the small ships into large ships and watch as the amount of resources you lose goes down.  battlecalc.com even overestimates slightly how many large ships you lose due a simulation flaw.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on February 02, 2010, 08:31:04 AM
Your data is flawed you used Weapons techs 15 for the attacker, and only 10 for the defender.

In those reports I sent you we were evenly matched in techs.

Try putting in the full data from those battles, and see what Battlecalc does..!

There is a massive difference between 1.5 K of fodder and 15K of fodder.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 02, 2010, 09:23:12 PM
The data is as accurate as I can make it and it isn't some odd ball fight, I've done hundreds of these and usually the no fodder all big ships work best.  The techs I picked gave similar losses to your real losses, if the actual techs were the same than in this game you would have experienced much more losses than you did, so there could be large differences between other game and this game.  If your techs were really the same then apparently in this game it is MUCH easier to greatly overpower your enemy and take less losses which makes big ships a lot better and that difference can be corrected in a simulation by using different techs like I did.

There is not a significant difference in the amount it's the ratios that matter 4000 artemis vs 10 of every ship and 400 artemis vs 1 of every ship will give the same results divided by 10, rather than saying there is a difference you can just run the simulations for yourself and watch as you get the same numbers.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on February 02, 2010, 10:25:48 PM
You cannot put 4000 artemis into battlecalc..

And no i'm not trying to, make this into a mud fight..

I read a post earlier that explains it probably better, than I could.

Quote from: "origon"
Take the hades ship as an example

If I send 2 athenas, they will most likely get demolished due to the 85.7% of the hades to fire again any time it hits an athena

If I send 98 artemis with the 2 athenas against the hades, there's a 98% chance that the hades will target an artemis (98 in 100 chance). Since the hades has no rapid fire against the artemis, it will not fire again letting your bigger ships (athenas in this case) live longer to take it down

If you increase the numbers, there is a higher chance of success, those figures I gave you, I simmed at the time with just Destroyers Battlecruisers Battleships and bombers with out fodder, the only profitable solution was what I used.

When it comes to fodder, the effectiveness is not linear in scale but curved to the point where it is near vertical, when you are dealing in 10's of thousands, and conversly to get the same results with bigger ships, becomes more cost prohibitive. 1000 Artemis cost 3KK ore 1KK crystal, where 100 Athena cost 4.5KK ore and 1.5KK Crystal.

But when you use fodder at low levels.  It is just becomes DF.

The other advantage to High volume fodder, is deterance, I don't know how closely you looked at that 1000 destroyer hit.  That fleet would have demolished my fleet with very little loss, He built a very good fleet, very well balanced. It would have severley maulled either of the other 2 fleets on a one to one, and he only built three types of ship.

And lastly the combat, is exactly the same inthat game as SFC with a few ship changes namely the Apollo, and the charon.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 03, 2010, 02:46:50 AM
I got a hold of the gnome, he changed that dampaq. You can run a sim with 4000 artemis if you want to. now.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 03, 2010, 04:52:16 AM
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
I simmed at the time with just Destroyers Battlecruisers Battleships and bombers with out fodder, the only profitable solution was what I used.

When it comes to fodder, the effectiveness is not linear in scale but curved to the point where it is near vertical

That's because you already built fodder, once you've built a mass of fodder and don't have enough big ships you cannot send big ship only fleets because you don't greatly overpower them with it.

The effectiveness of fodder is not perfectly linear and I believe it's curve will be in the direction of fodder being better but that curve is so small.  I cannot even detect a curve by looking at the difference between simulations with 10's, 100's and 1000's of fodder.   If Locien let me use higher numbers or if I could use Laggynate's alliance one I could prove if fodder in that battle or a typical battle is worth it for much larger battles but 99% of players right now are not going to have 10k fodder ships.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on February 03, 2010, 05:11:16 AM
True,

But in the next few weeks or so you will start seeing super fleeting.

I just hope that those that do get to that stage, don't become lazy and start turning weaker players into farms, and go for large fleet hunting instead.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Xight on February 03, 2010, 07:01:49 AM
Quote from: "EvilPenguin"
You are more doomed to niche targets with a balanced fleet, there is nothing a 200 hades fleet cannot attack that a balanced fleet of everything with the same resources can while maintaining low losses.  However there are a lot of large targets in which you will lose more resources attacking with some combination of your balanced fleet.

You may have a lot of experience horseman from the battle from the other game but that doesn't mean you know more of what your doing, the skill component is all math simulation.  In the report of thousands of ships you sent me you greatly overpowered your enemy and you would have taken much smaller losses had you only sent large ships.  I can prove it in the simulator while reducing the amounts by a factor of 10.

http://www.battlecalc.com/?runsimulatio ... m=Simulate (http://www.battlecalc.com/?runsimulation=runsimulation&attship1=&defship1=120&defship14=62&attship2=&defship2=&attship3=&defship3=30&attship4=1159&defship4=209&attship5=96&defship5=78&attship6=&defship6=7&attship7=106&defship7=5&attship8=&defship8=1&attship9=103&defship9=1&attship10=&defship10=1&attship11=61&defship11=1&attship12=26&defship12=2&attship13=&defship13=&attship15=&defship15=&defens1=303&defens2=100&defens3=35&defens4=5&defens5=4&defens6=3&defens7=1&defens8=1&attweapon=15&defweapon=10&attshield=15&defshield=10&attarmour=15&defarmour=10&num_simulations=10&sim=Simulate)

Now you lose about 7.5million resources but if we take the art, apollo, poseidon and convert them to hades with a 2.5 ore to hydro ratio and 1.5 ore to crystal ratio you end up with 85 extra hades and no art/apollo/pos and when you rerun the simulation you only lose 3million resources.

Here's a challenge, try to find a case where this doesn't happen since this is the norm.  Make a moderate fleet/defense, then pick a balanced fleet to attack it where you lose less than 10% of your resources, then convert the resources of the small ships into large ships and watch as the amount of resources you lose goes down.  battlecalc.com even overestimates slightly how many large ships you lose due a simulation flaw.

Your example makes no sense.  Why would someone send soo much artemis on someone who has soo much missile defenses.  A person who makes a balanced fleet will probably have proms = ares ratio.  Why aren't you using them in this battle sim?  You can even KEEP the fodder into the sim, and still take less losses than your large ship attack, by just adding those ares.

My argument for using ares with your simulation techs:
Shield tech 15 (9.6 mill crystal? lol) by itself is more than enough resources to build warp 9, which means you can throw them into the sim as well without worrying too much about attack speed.  Your already using prometheus which are slow anyways.  Even without the Warp 9 within the same system an attack with Ares only takes 10 extra minutes.

Just take out the artemis, and apollo, and add 26 ares to your simulation, and you take less than 1 million in resources of loss.  You still have a ton of left over resources after that for fodder ships.  Also a balanced fleet isn't just for you.  You're able to help out more in group attacks by contributing a diversified amount of ships to tweak your calculations.  Like we mentioned, just cause you have a balanced fleet doesn't mean you have to use it.  And in the example that you gave, a person with a balanced fleet gets more for their resources back.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: babam on February 03, 2010, 07:56:53 AM
reverse ninja

you figure out the return time of the attacking fleet and arrive 2 seconds after they get back, leaving no chance for them to fleetsave.

the funny thing is for the whole return trip, all they can do is watch their fleet return to certain destruction.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 03, 2010, 08:45:53 AM
I wanna hear more on how to calc that babam!

I'm still lost on the subject.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 03, 2010, 08:52:14 PM
You don't understand the discussion xight, ur post is 90% irrelevant.  You would need to know a lot of stuff to reverse ninja.  Techs, the speed at which he sent ships(which u can only guess), he would have to actually hit the target and not recall, and if you were off by more than 1.5 seconds u would either miss or he would dodge and you would lose hydro, it would be pretty pro to land this though.  I thought about doing it a while ago but there's so many what if's I figured it might not be worth my time and that I might just end up discovering like I did in Evony that the time movement system isn't calculated correctly.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Laggynate on February 03, 2010, 09:20:28 PM
Quote from: "babam"
reverse ninja

you figure out the return time of the attacking fleet and arrive 2 seconds after they get back, leaving no chance for them to fleetsave.

the funny thing is for the whole return trip, all they can do is watch their fleet return to certain destruction.
Or set up a group defend?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on February 03, 2010, 09:25:31 PM
Quote from: "Laggynate"
Quote from: "babam"
reverse ninja

you figure out the return time of the attacking fleet and arrive 2 seconds after they get back, leaving no chance for them to fleetsave.

the funny thing is for the whole return trip, all they can do is watch their fleet return to certain destruction.
Or set up a group defend?

Yes I Definatly, would not recommend, doing this unless your victim was in the same system as you, if your opponent Knows you can pull it off, the chances are you'll be setup for it....
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 03, 2010, 09:27:48 PM
Now that would be damned funny to see. I aborted an attack and said I had the wrong time because I expected a bloodbath.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: babam on February 04, 2010, 07:38:14 PM
i've done in a million times in SFC original, it's the only way i can lock in large fleets into a battle with my even larger fleet.  =D

you only need 10 seconds precision, it's impossible for the victim to fleetsave in 10 seconds.

and there are many times when the victim tries to bluff you by saying you're early or late.  be confident, hold your course, and enjoy the debris fields.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on February 04, 2010, 09:01:38 PM
Quote from: "babam"
it's impossible for the victim to fleetsave in 10 seconds.

I've done it in under 5's, though i have been advised the events manager can be touchy at under 9's.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Laggynate on February 04, 2010, 10:02:45 PM
Quote from: "babam"
it's impossible for the victim to fleetsave in 10 seconds.

Then clearly you aren't in the big leagues yet ;)
5s is plenty of time to pull a fleet save off. I think I've done it in 4 (including server lag).
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Bleys on February 05, 2010, 11:28:47 AM
I would listen to guys like Penguin. You ARE the same EvilPengiun from the old days of U16, right?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Lord Admiral Follett on February 06, 2010, 07:44:47 AM
Publishing your fleet ratios is foolish...as is the concept of having a fleet ratio other than saying that you should have a lot more Artemis than anything else and a lot of transport/dioynysus.

The reverse ninja is very effective, especially if the enemy has no defenses. Oftentimes after they've hit your world, they'll log off and assume their fleet will be safe. It can work if you know their techs well enough, and you can generally "persuade" a nearby player to probe the attacker for you for their tech levels.

This thread does ignore the principal of infrastructure. Having level 20 mines is very handy if you ever lose your fleet. Having a high level foundry allows you to rebuild quickly and lets you get back in the game. I lost slightly more than half my fleet a week ago, and I've already restored it based almost entire on infrastructure and the blasting of light targets. If you are ever in a major war, you'll need that high level shipyard and foundry... Mine get less valuable as they gain levels...foundries do the exact same thing at admitadly a greater cost. I have 3 foundries, and they all work great.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: EvilPenguin on February 06, 2010, 09:53:14 AM
I never played U16.  It won't hurt you to post a fleet ratio on an anonymous forum account.  A lvl 9 shipyard allows u to spend 600k resources a  day, having 5 of them is 3million a day, few people collect more than that kind of dough to make foundry necessary while I see a lot of 15k ranks that I know only bring in a million a day who spent what for them is a lot of money building foundries.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Bleys on February 06, 2010, 01:28:22 PM
Quote from: "Lord Admiral Follett"
Mine get less valuable as they gain levels...
How do you figure? Big mines are the key to this game. Get em into the 30s.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 07, 2010, 05:27:27 AM
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
Quote from: "babam"
it's impossible for the victim to fleetsave in 10 seconds.

I've done it in under 5's, though i have been advised the events manager can be touchy at under 9's.

Can you fleetsave a boomerang in 10s though?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Catfish on February 07, 2010, 06:40:15 AM
Boomerang? This is new to me. Care to explain?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 07, 2010, 08:30:04 AM
reverse ninja...
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Catfish on February 07, 2010, 08:58:02 AM
I suspected, but I couldnt be sure. We are constantly innovating around here.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 07, 2010, 09:01:26 AM
I haven't even pulled a ninja yet lol. I don't know how people manage to time it to within a few seconds without using stopclock since the game measures in full minutes.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Bleys on February 07, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
Quote from: "Catfish"
I suspected, but I couldnt be sure. We are constantly innovating around here.
Not really, this "game" has been solved for many years. Sorry.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: SGS 6 on February 17, 2010, 11:16:06 PM
Quote from: "babam"
reverse ninja

you figure out the return time of the attacking fleet and arrive 2 seconds after they get back, leaving no chance for them to fleetsave.

the funny thing is for the whole return trip, all they can do is watch their fleet return to certain destruction.

Difficult but not impossible. If you have the techs and fleet composition you can figure out the travel time pretty accurately. Or if you get the percentage and time on the incoming attack, you can caluclate out from that, as long as they don't recall. The thing is with that you can really only get accuracy down to 1% of the travel time, which for a 1 hour attack is like 40 seconds.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: SGS 6 on February 17, 2010, 11:32:43 PM
Quote from: "codename_B"
I have a spreadsheet for calculating a boomerang with precision down to the second...

however seeing the response my last spreadsheet post got, is it worth it?

Sure.

What I meant though is the ability to calculate it off of secondhand intelligence. If one of your friends tells you, "oh, at X game time, this fleet was 37% of the way to me with 1:01.17 to go", you CAN run math back from that but there's a small margin of error, because you don't know if it just hit the 37 or was about to hit 38.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: bryn987 on February 17, 2010, 11:41:40 PM
Is it similar to Laggy's flightsim?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Asrrin29 on February 18, 2010, 12:23:28 AM
Thanks for posting this, I can really use it.  I'll try it out and let you know what I think.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Doms on March 08, 2010, 11:38:57 AM
Quote from: "codename_B"

EDIT EDIT - I should also mention that this version is set up for extreme, as that's what I play most, but it's a simple matter of sticking in a *2 to get it to display for OSFC

where should we punch in this *2 exactly?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Highway of Life on March 10, 2010, 12:38:53 AM
Quote from: "Matt"
I don't think I can move just a post from this thread over. Can you just paste the BB code into a separate thread? Then I can move that.
Bottom left of the viewtopic page, look at the Quick-mod tools drop-down menu. Choose Split topic.
Choose a new topic title and the forum for the new topic.
Then checkmark the box for the post which you want to pull out. (or you can choose multiple posts as well).
At the bottom of the page, there is another menu, choose “Split selected posts” (not split FROM selected post onwards)
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Kzarius on March 13, 2010, 08:30:27 PM
I've been using this tactic more and more lately to partially avoid ninjas and to get my fleet back quicker to my colony, not sure if it's been discussed here. What I do on an attack is I send my slow stuff out first, then do a group attack invite with myself and add my fast things. This way after the hit, the groups split and the faster one gets to my base much quicker than the other. So, I send:

Group 1:
Ares, Hercules, Proms

Group 2:
Hades, Athenas, Poseidon, Apollo / Artemis

If a ninja happens, they only get one group, but I find it more helpful when I have multiple colonies to hit and need the hades and athenas back quicker.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: BentLightyear on March 31, 2010, 04:29:59 AM
Questions for you:  When do the groups join together to hit the target?  Doesn't that happen before the target is hit?  If so, wouldn't the ninja get both groups (now joined)?

I see the utility of getting the fast group back sooner (because they split back up after the attack?), but I don't see how this helps against a ninja. :|   Please enlighten me.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Kzarius on April 02, 2010, 10:21:16 AM
Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean a ninja that targets when you get back to your colony after an attack.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Jacq on April 02, 2010, 07:00:05 PM
The ships join together to attack the target, matching speeds to the slowest group.    After the attack the groups split up and the faster ships return home quicker.   It's important to have a high enough AI level so that you can send attacks like this.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: The ZPM on April 12, 2010, 05:23:55 AM
Quote from: "codename_B"
Now, the information you need to use it.

1. the server time at which the snapshot of the incoming attack was taken
2. the time remaining of the attack at that server time
3. the tech levels of the attacker (upgrades are taken care of for the various ships)
4. the type of ships existing in the fleet (you only really have to put a 1 in for the slowest ship here)
5. the co-ords of the defender, and the co-ords of the attacker.
6. your time to reach the attacker (I didn't include a calc for this because it's incredibly simple to obtain via the fleet screen)

EDIT - the "your system" bit is really the system of the defender, since I use it for me, I'm the defender. lol

EDIT EDIT - I should also mention that this version is set up for extreme, as that's what I play most, but it's a simple matter of sticking in a *2 to get it to display for OSFC
But if it's a group attack you can't rely on the % and time-to-attack to extrapolate time-to-return  You have to look at distance and ship speeds at that point.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Kzarius on April 13, 2010, 03:00:51 AM
I think if you have a larger fleet and tight on hydro, it's essential to have 2 roving colonies. One to set up in a target-rich area, do some smaller hits from these, then when you need to hit a fleet with full-force, instead of sending the entire fleet a few systems away with lots of time till the strike while trying to go as quickly to the target as possible (burning hydro), you should send the fleet at a slow speed with a gaia, colonizing next to the target/in the same system, allowing your fleet to hit at full speed within a short amt of time, increasing the chances of a successful hit and dio collection being much faster, while saving the hydro it would take to send it and have them f/rs at the last second.

I have a 3rd roving colony, but this is set up in systems where a high-ranked player has gone inactive with 6+ colonies in the same system to farm.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Proliferator on June 09, 2010, 10:13:18 AM
If there is one resource you have a lot of and not a whole lot of time you can propose a trade to an inactive member. They won't accept or decline. Your fleet and a lot of 1 resource can be saved for a maximum of 24 hours.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: origon on June 09, 2010, 10:45:02 AM
Actually, ships pending for trades can be seen on espionage reports and CAN be destroyed and plundered
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Proliferator on June 09, 2010, 10:22:48 PM
I actually experienced this. I was trading hydro for ore or getting ready to. I was under attack so I put the trade into effect attack came and my trade was still pending. The attack came and none of the things I put under trade were lost.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Proliferator on June 19, 2010, 11:37:32 PM
Actually I didn't win. My trade ships were not destroyed and I was perfectly fine. Ask BFG.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Proliferator on June 20, 2010, 01:10:34 AM
Glitch? Are you not supposed to be able to do that?? I don't see why not. You have suspended all your units into a trade. Its what your trading with plus fighter units do have a cargo capacity and can help you out a smidge.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: MrHyde on June 20, 2010, 12:33:42 PM
? Pending trades are per rule supposed to come into play during attacks.  Any other result would change the game balance and therefore affect major strategies.  If you don't understand this, you really don't understand the game.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Hawkins on July 13, 2010, 04:06:26 AM
I managed to hit a target awhile ago who had a pending trade and I wiped out all of those cargo ships, so the system must of glitched.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Catfish on July 13, 2010, 05:53:30 AM
Once you offer a trade with someone, the ships and resources are no longer available to you, but they don't leave until the other person accepts. Pending trades return to the planet during an attack, so that's not a glitch.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Marie Davis on August 09, 2010, 04:51:52 PM
Anyone up to writing a guide on how to upgrade mines and keeping a good balance between fleet/mines and defenses.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: HGH 2ic on January 26, 2011, 12:24:40 PM
Can anyone give some advice on building up moons? I got my first and it looks like a task of balancing builds on capitol vs lunar base in order to produce enough free fields to build up to oracle 6-8/warp gate.
 What levels should i build up first? In order to avoid massive build times or running out of fields?

Any advice welcome. I start a new topic on this as i've searched the forum and not found one specific thread.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: the enforcer on January 26, 2011, 12:41:51 PM
lunar base(lb) capx2, i build up to lvl 5 lb then with the last spot i build a warpgate then tear down lvls of capitol and replace with oracle.

i use to worry about getting range up on my oracles but they are overrated and i tend to not use them so i don't mind long build times and i don't take them past lvl 7.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: HGH 2ic on January 26, 2011, 12:51:45 PM
I plan to go at least to oracle 7(48 systems). Just now i've lunar base 6 and building capital 8 leaving 4 free fields meaning i'll have to roll back to capitol 5 or so. I guess i'll end up doing what you say and rolling back on capital in order to make space for oracle/warp gate, i just didnt want to get to oracle 4-5 ish and find i need more levels of capitol.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: (*<GHOST>*) on August 10, 2011, 01:22:40 PM
Unless I have overlooked it, I haven't seen anything on this yet. I have 2 planets devoted as missile bases. Currently they have foundry 4, missile silo 8, and no other defenses to speak of. When moved (for a nominal fee of course) they are not useful for 24 hours, but after that time, they are most useful in leveling enemy defenses to open them for plunder from a MAC. This can be costly, but most effective especially in matters of war where plunder points are needed for a win.
I am not sure if BFG had this in mind when they made this option available, but it can be a useful strategy if used properly.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: (*<GHOST>*) on August 10, 2011, 01:53:04 PM
I am hoping for a little feed back here, but according to my calculations this idea seems to have merit.
Considering the cost and vulnerability of the HAP, I have considered developing a Giant Killer MAC to stalk, bait, and kill the HAP.
Tracking such is difficult but lucrative in that when destroyed all attached to it are destroyed as well. The average HAP consists of several Zeus with capitol ships and support fodder. Calculating what would be needed to accomplish said goal is not at all unrealistic to achieve. The GKMAC is 30 times faster than than the HAP, and also faster in deploying Dios to recover the DF. Potential DSP is far greater than the average find of targets who have gone (i), or individuals that by some mishap have left their fleet unattended. The cost of Hydro would be considerably greater, but definitely worth it if the proper strategies are employed.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Phil Sutherland on August 10, 2011, 02:04:40 PM
Quote from: "(*<GHOST>*)"
I am hoping for a little feed back here, but according to my calculations this idea seems to have merit.
Considering the cost and vulnerability of the HAP, I have considered developing a Giant Killer MAC to stalk, bait, and kill the HAP.
Tracking such is difficult but lucrative in that when destroyed all attached to it are destroyed as well. The average HAP consists of several Zeus with capitol ships and support fodder. Calculating what would be needed to accomplish said goal is not at all unrealistic to achieve. The GKMAC is 30 times faster than than the HAP, and also faster in deploying Dios to recover the DF. Potential DSP is far greater than the average find of targets who have gone (i), or individuals that by some mishap have left their fleet unattended. The cost of Hydro would be considerably greater, but definitely worth it if the proper strategies are employed.
You need 2 free slots. The production lost by those 2 colonies adds up and quickly pays for the heph.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: (*<GHOST>*) on August 10, 2011, 05:11:55 PM
Your input is much appreciated, but the issue is not about production, as much as, the accumulation of DSP. I am a MAC hunter, but I do have 4 planets that yield a sufficient production for my needs in that capacity. Of course 2 other positions are merely missile bases for demolishing strongholds. That leaves me the 3 remaining positions for leapfrog to cover more area, and to transport plunder to build planets, as I reposition MACs accordingly.
My average daily take is @ 38 mil during a 18 hour shift. That varies from one MAC to the next, but is more lucrative as I see it.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Phil Sutherland on August 10, 2011, 05:17:03 PM
Quote from: "(*<GHOST>*)"
Your input is much appreciated, but the issue is not about production, as much as, the accumulation of DSP. I am a MAC hunter, but I do have 4 planets that yield a sufficient production for my needs in that capacity. Of course 2 other positions are merely missile bases for demolishing strongholds. That leaves me the 3 remaining positions for leapfrog to cover more area, and to transport plunder to build planets, as I reposition MACs accordingly.
My average daily take is @ 38 mil during a 18 hour shift. That varies from one MAC to the next, but is more lucrative as I see it.
What universe?
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: (*<GHOST>*) on August 10, 2011, 05:47:12 PM
Uni Ex 2
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: Phil Sutherland on August 10, 2011, 05:54:20 PM
Quote from: "(*<GHOST>*)"
Uni Ex 2
Im sorry but your wasting resources. You should have all 8 planets colonized with atleast 32/28/28 mines minimum. You wont get anywhere with your current set up. almost everyone is making over 100M aday there.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: (*<GHOST>*) on August 10, 2011, 06:04:08 PM
You are correct. My objective is not to secure production at this point. I have only been at this version for less than 2 months. If I focus on mine production exclusively, I will be moving at a snails pace as it requires resources to complete the higher levels.
I do in fact intend on doing as you just indicated in process. As I accumulate the needed resources, I am building mines, fleet, defenses, and research to supplement my overall structure. In time, when I have completed the needed techs, I will focus on filling the remaining slots with production mines, labs, and foundries. At that point I can devote effort on a HAP of my own.
My question was mainly focused on the issue of Developing for hunting HAP vs. doing the common thing that is employed by the majority.
Title: Re: Advanced Strategies
Post by: IronEyes on August 11, 2011, 01:03:29 AM
Quote from: "fornov"
You can counter this by sending two separate group defend fleets - one to arrive a few seconds before the attack is supposed to land, and a second one to arrive a minute after the attack lands.

If a player slows the attack and probes, you can recall the first defending fleet.  The second one will still arrive in time to successfully defend.  You would probably do this with two separate defenders, but if your defending fleet is large enough, one player could do it.


I agree that this is a nice counter for anyone who slow probes their attack fleet by one minute or less.  But for those who do a single slow probe to decrease the attack by two minutes will defeat your counter.  Most ninja defends (even those who are using a second defending fleet) will be caught by a 2 min slow probe unless it is planned for.  A two minute slow probe will allow for a triple probe method, i.e. one probe sent to land at the original attack land time, another one min after and one to land 30 seconds before the altered landing time will normally catch a defending fleet in time to pull an attack.  Landing a probe even 15 seconds before your attack lands in this scenario will give sufficient time to pull an attack.  
The best advise though when slow probing your attacks is to mix up your times so that a pattern of slow probing can not be used against you.  In other words, if you only do one min twenty second slow probes and a determined player is out to get you they only need patience to time your attacks.   By knowing you always slow probe to one min and twenty seconds they can plan accordingly.  But if you mix up the time of your slow probe you can significantly reduce the chance of getting yourself ninja'd.