Starfleet Commander Forum

Starfleet Commander => Original Universe => Alliances => Topic started by: darthfides on January 25, 2010, 10:04:00 PM

Title: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darthfides on January 25, 2010, 10:04:00 PM
Is there anyone really afraid of the Empire anymore?  Just curious.

Is it all smoke and mirrors and hype.  Who's really afraid of the Big Bad Empire anymore?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Maloar on January 25, 2010, 10:09:43 PM
Empire is the ultimate in "getting what's coming to you"
If you take care of your fleets.  Make sure you don't leave res lying around then Empire will have little to no interest in you.
However.  If you are lazy (or on occasion unlucky) then they will be there to make sure you regret it.

Having one parked next to me sure did make me a better player.  :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darthfides on January 25, 2010, 10:34:06 PM
Isn't that the way all good players are.  Leave stuff laying around and it's gone!

I don't think the Empire is the only one playing that way.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Maloar on January 25, 2010, 10:35:56 PM
Quote from: "darthfides"
Isn't that the way all good players are.  Leave stuff laying around and it's gone!

I don't think the Empire is the only one playing that way.

Certainly not.  But few alliances can claim the same % of there members are that skilled.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Combat time on January 25, 2010, 11:35:03 PM
The empire is far too small. I have never see any of them in anything higer than G30 (although i dont really look around too much)
and there are people in G90 now. I dont think we will ever see an EMPIRE memebr there
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: fornov on January 26, 2010, 01:17:41 AM
If  you aren't afraid of the Empire, maybe you should send your coordinates to Riker and leave your ships in orbit.  Then see how long it takes until they're gone.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: bryn987 on January 26, 2010, 01:22:14 AM
Quote from: "fornov"
If  you aren't afraid of the Empire, maybe you should send your coordinates to Riker and leave your ships in orbit.  Then see how long it takes until they're gone.

I could do the same thing to pee wee herman and still lose my ships :?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: fornov on January 26, 2010, 01:43:12 AM
Quote from: "Combat time"
The empire is far too small. I have never see any of them in anything higer than G30 (although i dont really look around too much)
and there are people in G90 now. I dont think we will ever see an EMPIRE memebr there


Is there anyone good in G90?  There is no point in going to G90 at this point, is there?  All the good targets are in the first 15 galaxies or so.  When the good targets start appearing in the 40's, 50's, etc., then you'll start seeing Empire members in those galaxies.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Lord Admiral Follett on January 26, 2010, 01:50:19 AM
I love how random people seem to enjoy insulting the bang-up job Empire has done of disposing of those unsightly fleets and resource deposits...on the forums...under false names...after moving their homeworld...to Galaxy 70...while constantly praying that they don't see the little espionage detected icon appear. Come down to galaxies 1 through 15...and you'll learn all about us. Or you can just send us your coordinates...it'd be quicker...and much less painful. Remember, its a big universe and we can only clean up so much litter at a time.

Remember people, Empire Cares! That's why we do what we do!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: The Genktarov on January 26, 2010, 04:46:30 AM
I don't think much of anyone's afraid of the Empire.  Actually, Empire taught me to fleetsave religiously.  I now fleetsave when I pee.

Follet, I just have to say I've always wanted to ninja you.  It wouldn't be hard, considering your attack practices.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: LassasinoSilenzioso on January 26, 2010, 06:47:49 AM
If they ever install jump gates, all these high galaxy people will finally shut up. Empire bears its reputation not only for the skill of its players, but also for their ruthlessness, they will attack just about anybody, offer them a NAP, and they will laugh, lose your Zeus to them, and they will laugh at you in their latest Newsletter. They are like the Miami Hurricanes in college football of the 1970s.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Imperator_Venit on January 26, 2010, 07:15:24 AM
Mmmmm...jumpgates...8-)

I haven't experienced any incidents with Empire as of yet, but I'm sure it will be one of revelation when it does eventually happen. =)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Obsidian on January 26, 2010, 07:34:51 AM
Decent players unless spectacularly unlucky will only ever be probed by Empire, they aren't going to waste their time on a properly defended properly fleetsaved planet.  If you're lazy though or think you're safe then they'll show you different.  So will the other top players.  This assumes of course you haven't done something to actively piss them off causing them to just make your life miserable.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on January 26, 2010, 10:42:00 AM
Quote from: "fornov"
If  you aren't afraid of the Empire, maybe you should send your coordinates to Riker and leave your ships in orbit.  Then see how long it takes until they're gone.

Is that how he gets hits, interesting....
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darthfides on January 26, 2010, 12:46:11 PM
I will say this.  There are a few funny guys in Empire.  Follett and Robb Ross make me laugh when I read their posts.  Very creative and humerous at the same time.  At least there is a sense of humor over there.

Also, thanks for probing me the last 12 hours.  Now I have locations on many Empire I didn't even know existed.  You have to learn how to play the game one way or another.  Sometimes is just smack talk to illicit a response.

And, I got mine.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Hegemon on January 26, 2010, 12:50:53 PM
:lol:  nice, now you where they live.  Question is, what are you going to do about it?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: mgalvin67 on January 26, 2010, 04:07:05 PM
Does anyone find it ironic that a guy with "darth" in his handle is calling out a group called "empire"?  Anyone?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Combat time on January 26, 2010, 04:48:26 PM
Quote from: "fornov"
If  you aren't afraid of the Empire, maybe you should send your coordinates to Riker and leave your ships in orbit.  Then see how long it takes until they're gone.

Im not afraid of the empire because i fleetsave when i am not online and as long as i dont make any mistakes - that makes me almost impervious to attack
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Combat time on January 26, 2010, 04:49:52 PM
Quote from: "Obsidian"
Decent players unless spectacularly unlucky will only ever be probed by Empire, they aren't going to waste their time on a properly defended properly fleetsaved planet.  If you're lazy though or think you're safe then they'll show you different.  So will the other top players.  This assumes of course you haven't done something to actively piss them off causing them to just make your life miserable.

+1 my point exactly
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: President Penny on January 26, 2010, 05:04:49 PM
Well you certainly know where I live after the attack I sent to you yesterday.  Nothing major mind you on resources or ships, but once again Empire Cares and you need to learn to fleet save.  Anyways thanks for the resources and for helping recycle your 53 probes, 9 atlas's, 2 dinos, and 8 poseidon.

I'll be waiting for your response or attack.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darthfides on January 27, 2010, 02:46:19 AM
Um, that was my probe base and one night's production.  That was a HUGE accomplishment!  You killed my probes and that took about 15 minutes to replace.  

I don't think I would be bragging about that on any board!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: President Penny on January 27, 2010, 03:44:44 PM
Next time you might want to protect your fleets when you are being probed over and over again.  Just commen sense.

Don't worry I trust you have none.


Enjoy!

:-)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darthfides on January 29, 2010, 04:24:01 AM
So, you are still bragging about taking out probes and a few fodder ships!  I guess I have nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on January 29, 2010, 03:18:59 PM
As I understand it, Empire are only capable of farming weaker players, down to nothing...

There is an animal like this, that's the sheep...

And no I'm not afraid of sheep.... Baaaaa Baaaaa Baaaaa

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: President Penny on January 29, 2010, 04:01:44 PM
You are the one who wanted to draw attention to themselves and claim you weren't afraid.  No worries the real fun is about to begin.  Enjoy!

And sheep really?  Anyhow I would like to know an alliance who has destroyed more Zeus's then us and have worked together to bring about the largest group attacks in this game.  But sheep?  Sure why not.  Killer sheep more likly, but I can be any animal.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on January 29, 2010, 06:33:02 PM
Quote from: "MatthewPaulPenny"
You are the one who wanted to draw attention to themselves and claim you weren't afraid.  No worries the real fun is about to begin.  Enjoy!

And sheep really?  Anyhow I would like to know an alliance who has destroyed more Zeus's then us and have worked together to bring about the largest group attacks in this game.  But sheep?  Sure why not.  Killer sheep more likly, but I can be any animal.

Sheep roam around in large flocks too...

Sheep always succumb to wolves... :twisted:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on January 29, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
so who are the wolves?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: President Penny on January 29, 2010, 07:15:12 PM
Quote
Sheep roam around in large flocks too...

Sheep always succumb to wolves...


Yeah we have a very "large" folk don't we!  When most alliances go for large numbers that doesn't come close to describing us.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: LassasinoSilenzioso on January 29, 2010, 07:23:25 PM
Yeah who are these wolves?

What hunts a great white shark in his ocean?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Obsidian on January 29, 2010, 07:25:00 PM
Orca?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: LassasinoSilenzioso on January 29, 2010, 07:27:22 PM
Orca and Great Whites cover different terrain, they do not tangle with one another.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Obsidian on January 29, 2010, 07:30:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8GaDuCvYbE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8GaDuCvYbE)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: LassasinoSilenzioso on January 29, 2010, 07:42:47 PM
I stand very much corrected, and am therefore shutting up, good call obsidion.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on January 29, 2010, 07:54:51 PM
Quote from: "LassasinoSilenzioso"
I stand very much corrected, and am therefore shutting up, good call obsidion.

yeah. shut it. thank you.  :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: LassasinoSilenzioso on January 29, 2010, 08:08:29 PM
lol, you dont have to be a jerk about it  :)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on January 29, 2010, 08:10:43 PM
meanwhile, congratulations do need to go out to "Some call me Tim" for being the first 1MM point player in this SFC universe.

Congrats dude!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Scottay on January 29, 2010, 09:54:29 PM
If you saw RL pictures of Empire you would be terrified!  Just look at this one...
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on January 29, 2010, 09:56:28 PM
Quote from: "Scottay"
If you saw RL pictures of Empire you would be terrified!  Just look at this one...

So this is Some call me Tim, he's scared of rabbits isn't he?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: fornov on January 30, 2010, 04:30:32 PM
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be men of valour, for the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no man yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of full fifty men lie strewn about its lair. So, brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth.

King Arthur: What an eccentric performance.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.

Tim: There he is!
King Arthur: Where?
Tim: There!
King Arthur: What? Behind the rabbit?
Tim: It *is* the rabbit!
King Arthur: You silly sod!
Tim: What?
King Arthur: You got us all worked up!
Tim: Well, that's no ordinary rabbit.
King Arthur: Ohh.
Tim: That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
Sir Robin: You tit! I soiled my armor I was so scared!
Tim: Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!
Sir Galahad: Get stuffed!
Tim: He'll do you up a treat, mate.
Sir Galahad: Oh, yeah?
Sir Robin: You manky Scots git!
Tim: I'm warning you!
Sir Robin: What's he do? Nibble your bum?
Tim: He's got huge, sharp... er... He can leap about. Look at the bones!
King Arthur: Go on, Bors. Chop his head off!
Sir Bors: Right! Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew comin' right up!

[after Bors is killed by the killer rabbit]
Tim: I *warned* you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you *knew*, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little *bunny*, isn't it?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: LunarAvenger on January 30, 2010, 05:13:50 PM
Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.

Cleric: [reading] And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu...

Brother Maynard: Skip a bit, Brother...

Cleric: And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on January 30, 2010, 05:16:34 PM
I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on January 30, 2010, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
I fart in your general direction.


roflmao
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Leo Walsh on January 30, 2010, 06:22:27 PM
Gotta love old monty python :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on January 31, 2010, 06:40:44 AM
Quote from: "darthfides"
Is there anyone really afraid of the Empire anymore?  Just curious.

Is it all smoke and mirrors and hype.  Who's really afraid of the Big Bad Empire anymore?
Since anyone in this game can fleetsave, you might say that nobody is afraid of anyone, even if they have 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 proms/hades/athenas and unlimited resources. I mean hey, I'm in dip mode, so I'm not afraid of them at all. Of course, that's pretty meaningless.
But if you are asking if anyone can actually face up to them in a fight (i.e.: without chickening out and running away with fleet save), then I'd say most people are "afraid" of them in that sense.

To give you an idea: their AVERAGE player is ranked around 70th. Not 70k, not 7k, not even 700, I mean literally--number 70! That's insane, considering that most alliances would be lucky to have even ONE player below 1000, and would be EXTREMELY lucky to have anyone below 100, let alone their AVERAGE player.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: tbunny on February 01, 2010, 06:56:19 PM
Quote from: "fornov"
<snip>
[after Bors is killed by the killer rabbit]
Tim: I *warned* you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you *knew*, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little *bunny*, isn't it?

**rabbit applause for Some Call Me Tim**
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: earl.bedfordjr on February 25, 2010, 03:59:27 AM
I'm not do what you will..they are jerks to afraid to go after people that could destroy them...so they pick on the little guys. Screw the Empire..Bunch of Hacks that think they are better than everyone.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 25, 2010, 04:03:23 AM
Stop reviving dead threads noob
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Maximilian Liao on February 25, 2010, 04:09:32 AM
Who's the Empire ?  I'm new at the boards.  All I keep reading about is Star Wars and New Hope.  Where are these Empire gamers ? :?:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: earl.bedfordjr on February 25, 2010, 04:24:40 AM
I will bump what I want...The Empire is a group of elitist players that think its okay to just go around and attack players because they are not playing how they think the game should be played. These players do nothing but attack players way lower ranked than them, just so they feel like they are good at a video game...No Hope just hides when you attack them enough..And I haven't been in the Star Wars that much..

Basically they just think they are better than everyone else, because they know how to run(oops I mean fleetsave.) when someone attacks them...
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: OptimusN1701 on February 25, 2010, 04:40:02 AM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
Stop reviving dead threads noob

+1000
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on February 25, 2010, 06:11:03 AM
Quote from: "earl.bedfordjr"
I will bump what I want...The Empire is a group of elitist players that think its okay to just go around and attack players because they are not playing how they think the game should be played. These players do nothing but attack players way lower ranked than them, just so they feel like they are good at a video game...No Hope just hides when you attack them enough..And I haven't been in the Star Wars that much..

Basically they just think they are better than everyone else, because they know how to run(oops I mean fleetsave.) when someone attacks them...

And what would you recommend doing when someone (or a group of 10 people) attacks you with overwhelming force?  Take it like a man?   Would it be ok (in your arrogant  opinion) to harvest your own debris or would that be elitist too?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Aaria.moon on February 25, 2010, 06:16:24 AM
COOoOOLt :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Perseus on February 25, 2010, 06:25:38 AM
Quote from: "earl.bedfordjr"
I will bump what I want...The Empire is a group of elitist players that think its okay to just go around and attack players because they are not playing how they think the game should be played. These players do nothing but attack players way lower ranked than them, just so they feel like they are good at a video game...No Hope just hides when you attack them enough..And I haven't been in the Star Wars that much..

Basically they just think they are better than everyone else, because they know how to run(oops I mean fleetsave.) when someone attacks them...

Fail.

Newsflash. Most good players play the game like Empire does, (attack people of lower rank, etc.) That's how the game is played. Get used to it or quit.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Lord Admiral Follett on February 25, 2010, 04:50:25 PM
Elitist...I think that's the first time I've EVER heard that being used...

This game is a meritocracy...which is good and FAIR.

This game's philosophy doesn't apply well to communists...but for you there's DIPLO! So go running into it now.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on February 25, 2010, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: "earl.bedfordjr"
I'm not do what you will..they are jerks to afraid to go after people that could destroy them...so they pick on the little guys. Screw the Empire..Bunch of Hacks that think they are better than everyone.
And who would those people be? A few examples? Currently, the #1 player is from Empire.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Black Mamba on February 25, 2010, 05:21:12 PM
Guys I am not afraid of empire. I am not afraid of any one in this game.

I will attack any one that leaves me some crumbs that is worth the hydro to pick up.
You leave me profit I will do what I can to collect on it ;)

And don't believe me you could always come park your fleet on a MAC next to me and find out.

Maybe the good players just rub you the wrong way because they are doing so much better then you.
Me on the other hand I just knuckle down and go look for some profit to help me climb the ranks to make it up there with them :)  and that is just how they got where they are also...

hitting the lower ranks people is just the way things work because they are lower ranked because they let them selves be targets.  it's the higher ranked guy who is on and knows how to play that is very very hard to hit.. Most of the time you have to wait and watch for weeks on end for him to stay off line just a little bit to long and then group attack him.

Me and my alliance mates took out a guy who was way higher then us. We all just go for profit.  It is Just the higher ranked guys are the guys who know how not to leave profit, how not to be a target...
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: lawrence haynes on March 13, 2010, 08:19:20 AM
Quote from: "Perseus"
Quote from: "earl.bedfordjr"
I will bump what I want...The Empire is a group of elitist players that think its okay to just go around and attack players because they are not playing how they think the game should be played. These players do nothing but attack players way lower ranked than them, just so they feel like they are good at a video game...No Hope just hides when you attack them enough..And I haven't been in the Star Wars that much..

Basically they just think they are better than everyone else, because they know how to run(oops I mean fleetsave.) when someone attacks them...

Fail.

Newsflash. Most good players play the game like Empire does, (attack people of lower rank, etc.) That's how the game is played. Get used to it or quit.
:lol: None of you are getting any ass!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on March 13, 2010, 02:50:57 PM
Quote from: "OptimusN1701"
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
Stop reviving dead threads noob

+1000
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 14, 2010, 01:36:29 PM
Quote from: "Albert"
Quote from: "OptimusN1701"
+1000


Thx for the bump, Albert Zue!  Also, grats on getting a second Tang member into the top 50!

I landed in Gal 20 today and no less than 3 of my new neighbors hit the (d) button.  One of them even sent me a nice message asking why I had to open an Empire Welcome Center in their neighborhood.

Not only that, but two of them didn't fleetsave... it made for some nice debris fields!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on March 14, 2010, 01:58:16 PM
Quote from: "calebb"

Thx for the bump, Albert Zue!  Also, grats on getting a second Tang member into the top 50!

I landed in Gal 20 today and no less than 3 of my new neighbors hit the (d) button.  One of them even sent me a nice message asking why I had to open an Empire Welcome Center in their neighborhood.

Not only that, but two of them didn't fleetsave... it made for some nice debris fields!

lol - actually some n00b bumped it. so in telling him to stop bringing back old threads, i bumped it too  :oops:

haha we can't be surprised by that right? after all, rob ross asked the entire universe to either 1. run to *don't hurt me* mode, 2. donate 25MM hydro to the empire cause or 3. leave all of their ships around their planet as a show of force. maybe #3 was suggested by the zpm  :lol:

finally, we have 3 in the top 50, thank you haha
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darkset on March 14, 2010, 02:01:40 PM
so what ever happened to the ZPM anyway he has  dropped off the map i out rank him in ds points now and he used to be #1
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Noel G on March 15, 2010, 05:13:41 AM
Quote from: "darkset"
so what ever happened to the ZPM anyway he has  dropped off the map i out rank him in ds points now and he used to be #1

Ummm he quit months ago. Where were you?

Also I would like to let everyone know for the record that Darth Fides started this thread a long time ago so that Empire players would probe him and he would discover their locations. It served it's purpose and is now essentially dead.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 15, 2010, 07:48:28 AM
Quote from: "Noel G"
Quote from: "darkset"
so what ever happened to the ZPM anyway he has  dropped off the map i out rank him in ds points now and he used to be #1

Ummm he quit months ago. Where were you?

Also I would like to let everyone know for the record that Darth Fides started this thread a long time ago so that Empire players would probe him and he would discover their locations. It served it's purpose and is now essentially dead.


Keep telling yourself that.  We freely and openly give our location to anyone who asks via in-game message or PM.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Noel G on March 16, 2010, 09:11:49 PM
Quote from: "calebb"
Quote from: "Noel G"
Quote from: "darkset"
so what ever happened to the ZPM anyway he has  dropped off the map i out rank him in ds points now and he used to be #1

Ummm he quit months ago. Where were you?

Also I would like to let everyone know for the record that Darth Fides started this thread a long time ago so that Empire players would probe him and he would discover their locations. It served it's purpose and is now essentially dead.


Keep telling yourself that.  We freely and openly give our location to anyone who asks via in-game message or PM.


Ask him yourself nozzle
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Sid82 on March 17, 2010, 02:27:43 AM
Quote from: "calebb"
Quote from: "Noel G"
Quote from: "darkset"
so what ever happened to the ZPM anyway he has  dropped off the map i out rank him in ds points now and he used to be #1

Ummm he quit months ago. Where were you?

Also I would like to let everyone know for the record that Darth Fides started this thread a long time ago so that Empire players would probe him and he would discover their locations. It served it's purpose and is now essentially dead.


Keep telling yourself that.  We freely and openly give our location to anyone who asks via in-game message or PM.


am I just misreading that? you freely give them your location if they ask in-game...other than going to the leaderboards and finding you, which can be a hassle at times, they would pretty much have to have your location to be able to send you a message in game and therefore wouldn't need your location
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 17, 2010, 05:38:24 AM
Quote from: "Sid82"
am I just misreading that? you freely give them your location if they ask in-game...other than going to the leaderboards and finding you, which can be a hassle at times, they would pretty much have to have your location to be able to send you a message in game and therefore wouldn't need your location



Dude I'm at the very top of the universe.  I can't say the coordinates, but surely you can read between the lines?  Sector 001, so to speak?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 17, 2010, 08:31:37 AM
Quote from: "codename_B"
pm the alliance leader in-game. I'm sure he's all you need. If you can't be bothered too look in the top 5 alliances to find EMPIRE, you're not going to be bothered to travel to wherever their planets are.

1  A New Hope  New Hope  70,437,866  
2  Klingon Black Fleet  KBF  35,454,423  
3  A Galaxy Far Far Away  StarWars  34,923,359  
4  True Pug Empire  Pug  30,795,847  
5  Time Wasters  Time  26,400,882  
6  Unimatrix Zero  UniMat0  25,536,258  
7  Maquis  Maquis's  22,511,229  
8  Legion.  [LGC]  21,461,158  
9  United Federation of Planets  UFP  20,583,031  
10  Hands Of Justice  JUSTICE  19,048,582  
11  The Foundation  Founders  18,370,276  
12  NEOTERRAN  NTA  18,155,023  
13  The Empire  Empire  17,892,718  


Er, uh, top 13 alliances... :)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darkset on March 17, 2010, 08:55:02 AM
Quote from: "Noel G"
Quote from: "darkset"
so what ever happened to the ZPM anyway he has  dropped off the map i out rank him in ds points now and he used to be #1

Ummm he quit months ago. Where were you?

Also I would like to let everyone know for the record that Darth Fides started this thread a long time ago so that Empire players would probe him and he would discover their locations. It served it's purpose and is now essentially dead.

if ZPM has quit then why has he not gone inactive yet?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Bravicus on March 17, 2010, 08:59:13 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Quote from: "codename_B"
pm the alliance leader in-game. I'm sure he's all you need. If you can't be bothered too look in the top 5 alliances to find EMPIRE, you're not going to be bothered to travel to wherever their planets are.

1  A New Hope  New Hope  70,437,866  
2  Klingon Black Fleet  KBF  35,454,423  
3  A Galaxy Far Far Away  StarWars  34,923,359  
4  True Pug Empire  Pug  30,795,847  
5  Time Wasters  Time  26,400,882  
6  Unimatrix Zero  UniMat0  25,536,258  
7  Maquis  Maquis's  22,511,229  
8  Legion.  [LGC]  21,461,158  
9  United Federation of Planets  UFP  20,583,031  
10  Hands Of Justice  JUSTICE  19,048,582  
11  The Foundation  Founders  18,370,276  
12  NEOTERRAN  NTA  18,155,023  
13  The Empire  Empire  17,892,718  


Er, uh, top 13 alliances... :)

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol: , +1 for being a smart a, +1 for proving once and for all that ANH is the premiere alliance in the game

Seriously any ranking that has them at the top (and by 2x as many points as any other alliance) just proves that ranking to be worthless
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darkset on March 17, 2010, 09:07:45 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Quote from: "codename_B"
pm the alliance leader in-game. I'm sure he's all you need. If you can't be bothered too look in the top 5 alliances to find EMPIRE, you're not going to be bothered to travel to wherever their planets are.

1  A New Hope  New Hope  70,437,866  
2  Klingon Black Fleet  KBF  35,454,423  
3  A Galaxy Far Far Away  StarWars  34,923,359  
4  True Pug Empire  Pug  30,795,847  
5  Time Wasters  Time  26,400,882  
6  Unimatrix Zero  UniMat0  25,536,258  
7  Maquis  Maquis's  22,511,229  
8  Legion.  [LGC]  21,461,158  
9  United Federation of Planets  UFP  20,583,031  
10  Hands Of Justice  JUSTICE  19,048,582  
11  The Foundation  Founders  18,370,276  
12  NEOTERRAN  NTA  18,155,023  
13  The Empire  Empire  17,892,718  


Er, uh, top 13 alliances... :)

i think he means under alliance average as it is the only one that means anything most of the alliances you have listed a propped but my more then 200 members the empire is not
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 17, 2010, 07:01:03 PM
I didn't compile that list, the game did  :roll:

Alliance Average always felt like a consolation prize to me. "Alliance not good enough in real life? Here's a catagory you can still feel kinda good about."
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 17, 2010, 07:37:39 PM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I didn't compile that list, the game did  :roll:

Alliance Average always felt like a consolation prize to me. "Alliance not good enough in real life? Here's a catagory you can still feel kinda good about."

Alliance average = average score per player

So which is the better car?  Mercedes, with an average price per car of $72,000?
Or Hyundai, with a larger total revenue per year due to mass production and selling more cars?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Reginald Barclay on March 17, 2010, 08:17:46 PM
Quote from: "calebb"
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I didn't compile that list, the game did  :roll:

Alliance Average always felt like a consolation prize to me. "Alliance not good enough in real life? Here's a catagory you can still feel kinda good about."

Alliance average = average score per player

So which is the better car?  Mercedes, with an average price per car of $72,000?
Or Hyundai, with a larger total revenue per year due to mass production and selling more cars?
Bad analogy. The correct analogy would be:
Which is the better car company? Mercedes, with an average price per car of $72,000?
Or Hyundai, with a larger total revenue per year due to mass production and selling more cars?

If you're going off alliance average, 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse is ranked number 3 and has two members. Is that really much of an alliance? "uf6" is ranked number 4 and has one member. That's not an alliance at all. Most of the top ten have less than ten members.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Aaria.moon on March 17, 2010, 08:29:44 PM
Your Hyundai vs. Mercedes analogy is also a fail. That's an alliance average of one.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 17, 2010, 08:37:32 PM
Quote from: "Aaria.moon"
Your Hyundai vs. Mercedes analogy is also a fail. That's an alliance average of one.

No it isn't - it's a perfectly cromulent analogy.

Hyundai Annual Revenue FAR exceeds Mercedes.  Yet Mercedes has a much more expensive and much higher quality product.

The same can be said about Empire vs MegaAlliance 123 who lets anyone in just to get numbers and "Alliance Total" points.


Here's another person who is afraid of Empire.

He abandoned all his colonies.  Too bad, I had only recycled two so far.  He was rank 101 - not sure where he'll end up once the scores update!

(http://http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1310/afraidc.jpg) (http://http://img263.imageshack.us/i/afraidc.jpg/)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on March 17, 2010, 08:38:02 PM
Quote from: "Reginald Barclay"
If you're going off alliance average, 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse is ranked number 3 and has two members. Is that really much of an alliance? .

What in your mind makes an effective alliance?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 17, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
Quote from: "Reginald Barclay"
If you're going off alliance average, 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse is ranked number 3 and has two members. Is that really much of an alliance? .

What in your mind makes an effective alliance?


I would say that makes them an extremely strong alliance.  Bringing the car analogy back in, they might be Maserati - a small, custom exotic car manufacturer that produces a small quantity of high quality vehicles each year.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 17, 2010, 08:49:14 PM
Quote from: "Albert"
Quote from: "calebb"

Thx for the bump, Albert Zue!  Also, grats on getting a second Tang member into the top 50!



finally, we have 3 in the top 50, thank you haha

3?  Who is the third?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Reginald Barclay on March 17, 2010, 08:50:52 PM
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
Quote from: "Reginald Barclay"
If you're going off alliance average, 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse is ranked number 3 and has two members. Is that really much of an alliance? .

What in your mind makes an effective alliance?
A group that can attack multiple players on multiple fronts. These two high ranking members can probably do a pretty good job of attacking a couple of players on a couple of planets. But to take on several different players of the same alliance at once? That would be pushing it.

I'd more liken these small "alliances" to hit squads or guerrillas. Very effective against a few individuals, but not nearly as effective against a huge group.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: bryn987 on March 17, 2010, 08:59:10 PM
True, but I would not want to be next to them ingame  :shock:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Reginald Barclay on March 17, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
Absolutely (on both counts). A larger alliance is harder to control and know what is going on with everyone. And it's also harder to determine who is following the alliance's guidelines and who isn't. Plus, there's all of the messages I get every day for complaints, questions, permissions, help, etc.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Sid82 on March 17, 2010, 09:40:05 PM
Quote from: "bryn987"
True, but I would not want to be next to them ingame  :shock:


I really don't care who I'm next to in game...in one of my area's I am next to someone in the top 100....only 2 planet slots away...doesn't mean a thing if you fleet/res save properly...and of course by properly I mean don't be predictable, don't fleet/res save to the same place, at the same time, at the same speed, for the same amount of time....ever...I am currently going into dip mode but only because I am going out of town in the morning and will be gone over 2 weeks only being able to check in every 3rd or 4th day, but will be out of dip mode as soon as I get home and still won't care who I am next to in game
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on March 17, 2010, 09:40:38 PM
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
Quote from: "Reginald Barclay"
If you're going off alliance average, 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse is ranked number 3 and has two members. Is that really much of an alliance? .

What in your mind makes an effective alliance?

I will say that, while I have never encountered the Horsemen in the game, I respect the Horsemen alliance. Those who know me, know that I will only say that about a handful of alliances in this game.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 17, 2010, 09:50:51 PM
Quote from: "Sid82"
Quote from: "bryn987"
True, but I would not want to be next to them ingame  :shock:


I really don't care who I'm next to in game...in one of my area's I am next to someone in the top 100....only 2 planet slots away...doesn't mean a thing if you fleet/res save properly...

This is why alliance average doesn't matter to me, it doesn't matter what your rank is, as long as I fleet save properly (by properly, I mean harvest missions) then even the number 1 player can't do squat to me, or you, or anyone who does it right.

You can say 40-something Mercedes is better than several hundred Hyundai's, but in the end, none of them can do anything about that pesky red light (the red light, in this metaphor, is proper fleet saving).
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Noel G on March 18, 2010, 05:52:19 AM
Alliance average is the measure to go by because it accurately measures the overall skill of each individual player in the alliance. A large alliance of unskilled players will always get owned by a smaller alliance of skilled players. You can open up the floodgates and let everyone and their uncle in your doors but if they can't attack, defend, or fleetsave properly then all you will end up with are a large majority of your alliance in (d) as the Hulksters of the galaxy run wild on you.

There used to be this alliance called Feds who swore that they would destroy us. We would hit them, then they would send wave after wave of ships after us. Even our weakest players were smashing all the fleets they sent at us. Why? Because we knew how to organize and they did not. In the end they disbanded because of the internal turmoil that was caused by their constant losses and now they exist as a myriad of smaller factions. Some learned their lessons, got better and formed effective alliances while others were doomed to repeat their failures. Point is quality always rules over quantity. Average is a measure of quality while overall is a measure of quantity.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 18, 2010, 06:32:54 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I didn't compile that list, the game did  :roll:

Alliance Average always felt like a consolation prize to me. "Alliance not good enough in real life? Here's a catagory you can still feel kinda good about."
What's your reason for choosing quantity over quality? (esp given that group attacks/defenses are now limited in the number of participants) At the end of the day, these are just numbers. To make a more meaningful comparison, let's pit the two alliances against each other in a war.

2000 noobs vs 20 top veterans: who would have the advantage?
(Hint: that scenario looks more like 20 strong players having a feast of 2000 easy targets)

Different people feel different way, and it's understandable, but I'd like to know the reasoning behind it.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Bravicus on March 18, 2010, 09:25:55 AM
@absolutzero, I really think you have it reversed alliance total score is a great way for newbs to feel secure about their alliance.

Consider a typical newb threat after being probed.  it reads something like "I noticed you have an interest in my planets well you better watch out because now you are on my hit list and my alliance is much stronger than yours".  Sender from A new Hope or KBF or UniMato or Justice or TRA.  The point is in this game they might feel secure in their masses but there is no safety in numbers.  If someone tells you their alliance average is much better than yours that is a much better threat (even though threats in this game are made pointless by fleetsaving) unless of course it is one of those 1 man alliances.

The funniest threat I ever got was the promise that the sender would get his alliance and all "900+ buddies" (his words) and destroy me. His alliance while much bigger than mine (his had 400 members mine had 40) they had less total points.  The other funny thing is that he threatened me with his 5000 destroyed ship points (I had 80000 at the time).  Newbs and their massive worthless alliances.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 18, 2010, 10:45:10 AM
I'm from TFA (regular), and we don't tolerate that kind of nonsense from our players. Just because alliance recruit 1000s of members to make themselves look good doesn't mean that all alliances with several hundred members are just doing so to make themselves look good.

There's maybe 2 or 3 members a week who get "hit" and lose everything. 2 or 3 out of 400 ain't bad, ain't bad at all. I eat A New Hope for breakfast, Light alliance for lunch and whoever is dumb enough to sign off with their fleet at home for dinner. I'm nowhere close to pro or advanced either. I didn't join an alliance of 400 people because I wanted to feel good about being in a top ranked alliance (we're 60th and moving up steadily), although I can see why many people do. I joined back when it was 30 people old and not even in the top 200.

The reason I say alliance average is a consolation prize is because alliance average doesn't measure the alliance as a whole, it measures it per player. Any number of top 100 pros can form an alliance and instantly get a top alliance average spot without even trying. Where's the challenge? Overall score, on the other hand, is attainable for any alliance that tries hard enough to get it. ANH wanted it, figured out how to get it and got it.

Going back to the car analogy. It's like comparing Chevy cars to Mercedes. Mercedes only makes high-end, expensive cars but they're of higher quality. Chevy? They make cars for everyone, cheaper cars that run forever, trucks, SUVs, and even the occaisional high end, like the Corvette. Plus, they sell a much higher number of them. Sure all Mercedes cars beat out 99% of all Chevy cars, but because Chevy covers more bases with more varieties of cars, they're the better company.

Basically, ANH has a lot of members...newbs, novice, intermediate, advanced, pro...which means they can attack anyone on the board who doesn't have newbie protection making them a much more efficient anddangerous alliance if they wanted to be. Empire is pro only, they can only attack pros, only pros can attack them. Much smaller board to play on and therefore not so threatening to your Joe Average 17k ranker like me.

Alliance average, consolation price :)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on March 18, 2010, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Basically, ANH has a lot of members...newbs, novice, intermediate, advanced, pro...which means they can attack anyone on the board who doesn't have newbie protection making them a much more efficient anddangerous alliance if they wanted to be. Empire is pro only, they can only attack pros, only pros can attack them. Much smaller board to play on and therefore not so threatening to your Joe Average 17k ranker like me.

Alliance average, consolation price :)

You are quite mistaken, with regards, to who can hit who.  Large alliances are very much like large shoalls of sardines, they have a lot of mass, and believe in safety in numbers. Your smaller alliances like Tang, UF6, Empire etc.. are more like dolphins, sharks etc. who can and do consume large numbers of sardines, with impunity.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Bravicus on March 18, 2010, 12:02:07 PM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
The reason I say alliance average is a consolation prize is because alliance average doesn't measure the alliance as a whole, it measures it per player. Any number of top 100 pros can form an alliance and instantly get a top alliance average spot without even trying. Where's the challenge?

It's pretty hard to get into the top 100 so the challenge might just be that, making the top 100.  Any alliance with over 200 members should be in the top 100 overall if they aren't it means one of two things. First they might all be players who have been playing less than a month and there's nothing wrong with that. Second everyone in the alliance is doing things horribly wrong.  This would be an area of concern.  It is much more difficult for a preexisting alliance to climb the average leader board than it is to climb the total leader board.  In order to climb the totals all you have to do is invite more members not that hard you can add an easy 60k points just like that.  

If your alliance is outpacing other alliances in improving their averages that is a sign that the alliance is working well.  It means your members are active and are improving not only their points but their capabilities.  But it is hard to outpace others doing that it is not as if you are all of the sudden going to come up with a strategy no one has ever used before you have to work hard and everyone in your alliance does too.  Which is much more difficult to do than simply adding more players.  

Note I am not talking about the one man alliances, I'm talking about why a 30 member alliance that might rank in the top 50 average-wise is better than an 200+ member alliance that is in the top 50 overall but average-wise is somewhere in the 500's even if the large alliance has a better total score.

Case in point if the 30 member alliance goes to war with the 200 member alliance the smart money is on the smaller alliance every time.  Why?  They present fewer targets, they will be able to coordinate better (200 members on one forum has got to be difficult to organize) and they have better fleets on average than the other guys.  Alliance average is a much better indicator of who wins head to head and that is why it is the important one.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 18, 2010, 12:12:39 PM
"Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?"

Joseph Zeug
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Xight on March 18, 2010, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Basically, ANH has a lot of members...newbs, novice, intermediate, advanced, pro...which means they can attack anyone on the board who doesn't have newbie protection making them a much more efficient anddangerous alliance if they wanted to be.

Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on March 18, 2010, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: "Xight"
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Basically, ANH has a lot of members...newbs, novice, intermediate, advanced, pro...which means they can attack anyone on the board who doesn't have newbie protection making them a much more efficient anddangerous alliance if they wanted to be.

Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups

ummm. ANH is welcome to PM me in game for all 9 of my coordinates. In fact, given how I've killed (pounded so many times they quit the game) their top members, IF it was an alliance with any organization at all, they would have tried to fight back by now. but so far, nothing. Not even a probe.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 18, 2010, 04:16:25 PM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Any number of top 100 pros can form an alliance and instantly get a top alliance average spot without even trying. Where's the challenge?
The challenge is having everyone in your alliance get to top 100, or convincing a top-100 player that your alliance is worthy enough to join. It's not like these top players just pop out of nowhere for you to recruit.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Basically, ANH has a lot of members...newbs, novice, intermediate, advanced, pro...which means they can attack anyone on the board who doesn't have newbie protection making them a much more efficient anddangerous alliance if they wanted to be. Empire is pro only, they can only attack pros, only pros can attack them. Much smaller board to play on and therefore not so threatening to your Joe Average 17k ranker like me.
I understand your point: sure ANH has newbies, but they also have top players, so why are they still inferior to Empire? The problem is, they don't have players at the very top. They don't have a single top-100 player, out of over 2000 members.

Let's look at the top 5 players from ANH: average of 370k points per player. Remember, these are the very best out of over 2000 players.
Now look at the average player from Empire: 410k points per player, higher than the average of the top 5 players in ANH.

Another comparison: look at the top player from Empire--he alone has enough points to match all 5 top players in ANH combined :o  :shock:

In short, the top players in ANH can barely match the average Empire player, never mind the top Empire players. So to modify your point:
1) ANH is a threat to anyone except the very top players.
2) Empire is a threat to anyone except those at the bottom with <5000 newbie protection.
Everyone in the middle are fair game to both, but the difference is that Empire can target the very top players, while ANH can target the <5000 newbs--which one sounds better?

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Going back to the car analogy. It's like comparing Chevy cars to Mercedes. Mercedes only makes high-end, expensive cars but they're of higher quality. Chevy? They make cars for everyone, cheaper cars that run forever, trucks, SUVs, and even the occaisional high end, like the Corvette. Plus, they sell a much higher number of them. Sure all Mercedes cars beat out 99% of all Chevy cars, but because Chevy covers more bases with more varieties of cars, they're the better company.
A car company wants to cover all bases, because even the cheap cars earn you money. Selling a cheap car is better than selling nothing. In SFC, having a noob can actually be a burden--they offer more targets for rival alliances, it takes effort to protect them, and sometimes they even foolishly give away the locations of their higher-ranked alliance members. Adding 100 newbies into Empire would actually decrease the quality of that alliance (even if all the top members stayed). Imagine trying to protect hundreds of newbies--how inefficient would that alliance become?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Noel G on March 18, 2010, 05:10:32 PM
Only a noob would argue that overall is better than average. Albert is right about ANH also. I am getting peace overtures from ANH ambassadors because they are tired of getting hit by us. We have 176 members ANH has 2194. You would think that any alliance worth it's salt would be able to defend itself with such superior numbers but that is not the case. I am willing to bet if you look at all of the systems where SW and ANH are both present, you will find that ALL the ANH are in (d) and SW is not. There is no claim that anyone can make that could convince me that in this situation ANH is the better of the two alliances. Anyone who would make that claim would be in serious denial.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on March 18, 2010, 05:16:48 PM
let me clarify something also.

this is also not to say that ANH doesn't have good players. with an alliance that size, they probably exist. however, their average player just doesn't measure up to some of the top - by alliance average - players.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Xight on March 18, 2010, 08:52:52 PM
Quote from: "Albert"
Quote from: "Xight"
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Basically, ANH has a lot of members...newbs, novice, intermediate, advanced, pro...which means they can attack anyone on the board who doesn't have newbie protection making them a much more efficient anddangerous alliance if they wanted to be.

Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups

ummm. ANH is welcome to PM me in game for all 9 of my coordinates. In fact, given how I've killed (pounded so many times they quit the game) their top members, IF it was an alliance with any organization at all, they would have tried to fight back by now. but so far, nothing. Not even a probe.

My comment was to have sarcasm applied to it.   :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 20, 2010, 07:23:49 AM
Quote from: "vanvely"
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Going back to the car analogy. It's like comparing Chevy cars to Mercedes. Mercedes only makes high-end, expensive cars but they're of higher quality. Chevy? They make cars for everyone, cheaper cars that run forever, trucks, SUVs, and even the occaisional high end, like the Corvette. Plus, they sell a much higher number of them. Sure all Mercedes cars beat out 99% of all Chevy cars, but because Chevy covers more bases with more varieties of cars, they're the better company.
A car company wants to cover all bases, because even the cheap cars earn you money. Selling a cheap car is better than selling nothing. In SFC, having a noob can actually be a burden--they offer more targets for rival alliances, it takes effort to protect them, and sometimes they even foolishly give away the locations of their higher-ranked alliance members. Adding 100 newbies into Empire would actually decrease the quality of that alliance (even if all the top members stayed). Imagine trying to protect hundreds of newbies--how inefficient would that alliance become?

That's the thing, I've been in an alliance with 30 members who know what they're doing, I've been in 2 alliances with 400-500 members where only 25% of them know what they're doing. In the end? The bigger alliance was the better alliance. Granted with 30 people who know what they're doing, you don't have to answer newbie questions, describe how to group attack, fleetsave etc...but that's far less players making contributions. Sure, those 30 members are making bigger contributions, but in very few cases does a group of 30 or 40 out-score a group of hundreds or thousands.

It's actually very simple. The point of this game is to attack/defend/mine/etc in order to gain points. Those with the most points are considered to be "winning" or the "winners". ANH has scored more points than Empire, that makes ANH better. Debating over "who's players are better" or "alliance averages" is moot, because the point is to have the most points, period. Not the most points per player, not having the best player, but the most overall points. ANH has the most overall points therefore making them the best.

Now individual scores, whole different story and I'll give you anything you want on that one. The best player is the number 1 player, but the best alliance is the number 1 alliance. Alliance average denotes who has the best players, not the best overall alliance.

Empire was 1st when I started playing this game...they aren't anymore. So it's not like I'm saying that Empire can't be first again or that they aren't capable of doing it...just saying that right now they aren't.

Tying into the point of this thread...I'm not scared of Empire...or anyone. I can fleet save vs a moon now, I'm good at moving around and I'm online often enough.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Bravicus on March 20, 2010, 08:52:40 AM
I believe just about everybody would agree with me when I say that A New Hope is SFC's premiere farm.  Calling them the best alliance of any thing else fails to consider the actual point to being in an alliance.

By actual point I do not mean the reason why people join alliances, there are a lot of those.  I mean what benefits an alliance actually can have.  1st an alliance is able to help its members learn more about how to play the game.  This becomes difficult in a massively large alliance since it has got to be overwhelming to see hundreds of players names in the alliance forum.  It is difficult for the officers to teach too since there are so many members that many probably are largely ignored.  In this category a smaller alliance is much more able to succeed than a large one.  +1 for a small alliance.

Next an alliance is a very good way to find targets.  People post on the forum what juicy targets they find and others are able to say whether or not they can help.  Also they can use the galactic blackbook tool and share target information.  If a large alliance has everybody using this they would have a clear decisive win in this category however I don't have any information on how many blackbook users each alliance has so there is no way to tell on that part.  Still because of sheer numbers a large alliance should be able to find more interesting targets than a smaller one. The score is 1 to 1.

Next is being able to bring in other players fleets as support in group attacks and defends.  Sure it is easy to buddy up with the locals but they have no reason to be loyal to you, and as long as your alliance is named Justice and Kobayashi Maru isn't the guy inviting you to attack someone your alliance members are much surer bets to help out.  Now in any group attack/defend they amount of players participating is limited to 6 so there is no advantage in being in a massive alliance compared to a smaller one, at least as far as fleets go.  But when it comes to coordinating an attack a smaller alliance does have advantages because it is easy to coordinate with fewer people.  As anecdotal evidence I present a time I was invited to participate in a group attack with a 300 player alliance.  There were only 8 attacking players, so it is not too dissimilar from what rules allow for now, but two of the players were launching from neighboring galaxies and to make it worse one of them had ares in their fleet.  The attack took 5 hours to land and needless to say the defending player had fleetsaved long before the fleet hit.  With in my own alliance I have never been in an attack that took longer than 2 hours and that includes solo hits.  Score 2 to 1 smaller alliance.

A big draw for players that are more into empire building that smashing fleets is the ability to trade resources.  For these players it is a decided advantage to be in a large alliance.  It allows them to reach more people more quickly about trades and having more people involved increases the likelihood that one of those who hears both wants to participate and is in a position to participate.  2 to 2

Then you have the social part of the game.  Being in an alliance is entertainment for a lot of players.  When you aren't able to hit anybody you can read other people's battle reports.  When somebody gets a funny/angry message you can laugh about that.  The alliance makes a lot of the waiting around for stuff to happen much more bearable.  So which is better for this 30 people or 300?  I'd go with smaller, mainly because it is hard to have any sort of relation with that many people, it is just too many to remember and odds are you are galaxies away from most of them anyways so what they have to say doesn't mean all that much.  Of course this is more opinion rather than fact so I won't score this one way or the other, it is still 2-2.

Now you have the part that is a decided advantage to a smaller alliance.  A smaller alliance has much better quality control and is able to keep casual/unmotivated players out along with the douche-bags.  This doesn't mean they won't look at bringing in newbs or lower ranked players it just means the ones they do accept have to show that they will contribute eventually and won't be dead weight.  Sure a larger alliance could do that but it is pretty clear that a huge amount of A New hope's players really are just farms and just as many are in d mode.  These players amount to dead weight that can not be counted on to improve the alliance.  Dead weight has nothing to do with rank it has to do with contribution.  

Final score 3-2 small alliances win

On a closing note, Empire's Average player score is 418,080, A New Hope's is 33,333 it's pretty clear which gets more contribution from its members.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darkset on March 20, 2010, 09:30:38 AM
ya what he said but with less words and more lazy
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Star Admiral Alex on March 20, 2010, 10:19:20 AM
New Hope for me was always a mistery :)

i have never ghad an idea why one wishes to join it.

seriously,

just to be a part of something big? what's the point?

being protected? barely.

on the other hand we have small and vital alliance like Empire or some other under 50 members, which are formed either by a group of friends or a group of players who are in the same game location.
small alliances are more vital, more agile, react faster and act more effectivly in any situation where a big clumsy alliance will move very slow.


my vote is for small alli :)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darkset on March 20, 2010, 10:29:10 AM
UF6 is a small alliance with under 50 members and our spread is 40 galaxies not all small but strong alliances are packed into one place
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Joseph Zeug on March 20, 2010, 02:44:52 PM
Quote from: "calebb"
"Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?"

Joseph Zeug

Ehhhh....no.  Sorry, but you get no prize for an incorrect answer.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 20, 2010, 05:49:28 PM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
It's actually very simple. The point of this game is to attack/defend/mine/etc in order to gain points. Those with the most points are considered to be "winning" or the "winners". ANH has scored more points than Empire, that makes ANH better. Debating over "who's players are better" or "alliance averages" is moot, because the point is to have the most points, period. Not the most points per player, not having the best player, but the most overall points. ANH has the most overall points therefore making them the best.

...
Now individual scores, whole different story and I'll give you anything you want on that one. The best player is the number 1 player, but the best alliance is the number 1 alliance. Alliance average denotes who has the best players, not the best overall alliance.
Do you have any meaningful reasons left, or are you just resorting to technicalities? Your argument sounds like this: "ANH has more total points, so even though Empire can destroy ANH in battle, even though nobody in ANH can face up to Empire, even though ANH don't have top players, and even though Empire has better quality players, ANH is still better just because of more total points. No debate, end of discussion, period."
First, do you really feel that's the most meaningful way to determine the "better" alliance, or are you just saying that because you stubbornly don't want to back down on your point (which everyone disagrees with)? I noticed your original point was that ANH has both newbs and the best players, and so they are better--but after I pointed out that ANH actually has nobody in the top-100, you suddenly change your argument to this: "Total points = better, no debate."

Second, BFG never said "more total points" = "better alliance." They never stated that the alliance with the highest total points is declared the "winner." They never said that "alliance points" is superior to "alliance average." In other words, even the technicality that you are trying to quote is non-existent.

At the end of the day, the fact that a 2000+ member alliance can't face up to a 44-people alliance in an all-out WAR, says to me that the smaller alliance is far superior. Ask anyone this question: "If two alliances wage war, and one side keeps getting pounded, losing ships/resources left and right, which is the better alliance?"

This is a very general idea, even beyond this game: Get two armies, two clans, two mafia mobs, etc., to fight against each other, and let that decide who is better. Nobody is going to say "We have a far better army than you, but please don't hurt us, we beg you!"

Maybe we should take a vote? Or maybe let's ask the devs themselves? To Matt (or any devs), feel free to correct me if you guys who created the game do believe that in a war between two alliances A (44 members) and B (2000+ members), where A crushes B, the superior alliance is still B even though they got crushed.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Vanandapeus on March 20, 2010, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: "vanvely"
Maybe we should take a vote?

LMAO or maybe we should not, in case ANH rally their members :P
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 20, 2010, 07:17:18 PM
Quote from: "Vanandapeus"
Quote from: "vanvely"
Maybe we should take a vote?

LMAO or maybe we should not, in case ANH rally their members :P
Considering they have so many members, you'd think some of them would've at least spoken up on this thread? lol
But no, even their own members aren't rooting for ANH.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on March 20, 2010, 07:19:28 PM
Quote from: "vanvely"
Considering they have so many members, you'd think some of them would've at least spoken up on this thread? lol
But no, even their own members aren't rooting for ANH.

Maybe they havn't noticed the link for the message board  :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on March 20, 2010, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: "codename_B"
Guys, I've got it, lets make an million new accounts and get them 200 build points each, then join one mass alliance called noobs are the best!

It will be the best alliance in the game, and none of the members will even be out of noob protection!

Carefull that might be classed as multi accounting on a grand scale. :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 20, 2010, 07:48:01 PM
You're absolutely right. The point of this game isn't to amass the most points. The point system is completely worthless as to the play of the game...so is rank. *sarcasm*

In a game where you keep score by using a point system, the ones with the highest points are "winning". Don't need the rulebook or BFG for that one. Look at every other game that's judged via a point system in the world. The one with the most points = best/winner/winning.

Creating what's actually winning and how you interpret it is your prerogative, but in my personal opinion you're over complicating things. The number 1 player has the most points, the number 1 alliance has the most points and the alliance with the best members have the highest average. That's the way it's set up, that's the way people read it and that's the way it is.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 20, 2010, 08:24:30 PM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
You're absolutely right. The point of this game isn't to amass the most points. The point system is completely worthless as to the play of the game...so is rank. *sarcasm*
Continuing your line of sarcasm, I guess the point of this game isn't to fight and win battles/wars? So every time ANH loses a battle, they say "It's okay, we'll recruit another 100 members, that's 20k more points. We win!" Yeah, that's the whole of this game: to win points by recruiting more members, not by winning battles. *funny how sarcasm can reverse on itself*
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
In a game where you keep score by using a point system, the ones with the highest points are "winning". Don't need the rulebook or BFG for that one. Look at every other game that's judged via a point system in the world. The one with the most points = best/winner/winning.
There are more than one ranking system BFG has created. Nobody said alliance total is superior to alliance average. In a war, the side who consistently beats up the other side is stronger. The purpose of the points system is to try to measure how strong a team is, but no measurement is perfect. However, if you throw the two teams in a ring and let them duke it out, you'll see who's truly stronger.
An analogy: you want to figure out who is stronger between team A and team B. Do you:
1) Use some arbitrary calculation to come up with a number to try to measure their individual members' strength, their number of members, their cooperation skills, their communication, etc...
or
2) Just throw them both in a ring and let them fight it out. Whoever wins is stronger. Simple, and to the point.
Choice 1) tries to estimate their chances of winning. Choice 2) uses the very definition of WINNING.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Creating what's actually winning and how you interpret it is your prerogative, but in my personal opinion you're over complicating things. The number 1 player has the most points, the number 1 alliance has the most points and the alliance with the best members have the highest average.
Your personal opinion--that I agree, and that was my point. But looks like everyone on this forum also has their own personal opinions, and almost everyone here agree that the best alliance is determined by alliance average.
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
That's the way it's set up, that's the way people read it and that's the way it is.
That's the way you read it. Don't you see the many responses on this thread disagreeing with your view?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: gibbs on March 20, 2010, 09:50:04 PM
With so few numbers we still manage to push for top spot in the ships destroyed catagory. We have some of the best players in the game and driven countless alliances to destruction.

Why aren't guys messing with us? Because we will drop all of you!

Take a stroll through G1 were the big dogs roam or better yet drop a base or 2 there and see how long you last.

Scared of us, it doesn't matter. We always feast after the hunt.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 21, 2010, 12:04:07 AM
I just want to make sure I understand where all of you are coming from. The overall rank of the alliance doesn't matter, is to be completely ignored and is just there to make newbies feel good about themselves.

Whereas alliance average denotes the real way to determine the best alliance because it doesn't matter how the alliance does as a whole as long as each individual player has a higher average than everyone else?

Hm, right.

I don't care how many people disagree with me, I'm going by what the leaderboard says...although I guess you can't call it a leaderboard since none of you will recognize the alliance at the top of it as "the leader"...
I digress. Even if 4000 people message me telling me that ANH isn't the best, I'm going to send every last one of them a screenshot where ANH is number 1 on the LEADERboard. You can argue semantics all you want, it's right there in whatever colors it's written in.

I also notice a lot of you look down on mining and recruiting as "wimp" ways to gain points. Points are points and it doesn't matter how they're scored (as long as it isn't against the rules) and I think more than anything you guys are just bitter that ANH found a way around Empire and StarWars without having to go to war.
By the way, if they "lose" a war but remain in 1st place...then the winners of the war obviously didn't try hard enough.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Xight on March 21, 2010, 12:43:53 AM
Dude, don't mess with ANH, they are #1 in Crew Points!.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 21, 2010, 01:24:17 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I just want to make sure I understand where all of you are coming from. The overall rank of the alliance doesn't matter, is to be completely ignored and is just there to make newbies feel good about themselves.

Whereas alliance average denotes the real way to determine the best alliance because it doesn't matter how the alliance does as a whole as long as each individual player has a higher average than everyone else?

Hm, right.

I don't care how many people disagree with me, I'm going by what the leaderboard says...although I guess you can't call it a leaderboard since none of you will recognize the alliance at the top of it as "the leader"...
I digress. Even if 4000 people message me telling me that ANH isn't the best, I'm going to send every last one of them a screenshot where ANH is number 1 on the LEADERboard. You can argue semantics all you want, it's right there in whatever colors it's written in.
You keep referring to "the" leader board, but do you notice there are more than one ranking system? Who said alliance total is the final story? You can take screen-shots of ANH at the top of total alliance points all you want, but someone else can take a screen shot of the alliance-average leader board and say the same thing.

To answer your question: Does overall rank of the alliance mean nothing? Of course not, but it also doesn't mean EVERYTHING. Does the alliance average mean nothing? Nope, and to be fair, it does not mean EVERYTHING as well. Sound fair? BFG happened to use two formulas--one which says ANH is the "best," one which says Empire is the "best." But we can make up 10 formulas to calculate how "good" an alliance is, and NONE of them means everything. If all the formulas AGREED on one alliance being the top, then fine, that means a lot more. But that's not the case, they don't agree, and who's to say that one formula is the "correct" one?

So how do we determine the best? Simple--stop debating about numbers, because they all point to different answers. Just throw the two teams in a ring and let them fight it out.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I just want to make sure I understand where all of you are coming from...
And I'm also trying very hard to understand where you are coming from...So between Empire and ANH, even though Empire can crush ANH in a war, even though Empire has the superior players, even though none of the players in ANH are in the top-100, you still think ANH is better, simply because one of the ranking systems places ANH at the top (and Empire at 13th), and despite the fact that ANOTHER ranking system (also used by BFG) places it in 788th place.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Dampaq.Pale.Horseman on March 21, 2010, 01:31:59 AM
Your all reading too much into these numbers, at the end of the day, any alliance is more than the some of its parts, and that is all those statistics are just sumations, they actually meen nothing in terms of abilty.

Even in the real world, where governments ad agencies etc.. use demographic information, they can only use that statistical data to guesstimate, they are never a true measure of potential.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 21, 2010, 02:32:55 AM
Quote from: "Dampaq.Pale.Horseman"
Your all reading too much into these numbers, at the end of the day, any alliance is more than the some of its parts, and that is all those statistics are just sumations, they actually meen nothing in terms of abilty.

Even in the real world, where governments ad agencies etc.. use demographic information, they can only use that statistical data to guesstimate, they are never a true measure of potential.
Exactly. It's all an estimate. And there are many different ways to estimate, especially when you have to take into account multiple parameters. None of them is perfect. That's why we should get ANH and Empire to just fight it out.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Aaria.moon on March 21, 2010, 07:54:15 AM
Well if you check SFCX and the rankings there you will see two examples of high ranked alliances that are competing.

The First is EMPIRE and StarWars. Top two alliances who are also in the top 5 for alliance average. Low member counts but the damage they cause is epic, but in small amounts.

The second is ANH and KBF. Alliances 3 and 4, with sub top 100 alliance average. High member counts, able to deal damage to a single target over long periods. With some careful coaching these alliances could effectively rip apart the top alliances one member at a time if they planned properly.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: gibbs on March 21, 2010, 08:33:36 AM
maybe they should all attend NOB.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 21, 2010, 09:40:01 AM
It's just a different strategy to achieve the same goal. Empire and StarWars depend on low number of highly efficient players (they do have the best players, even if I still believe that ANH is the best alliance...as I've said about 3 times now) whereas ANH and KBF depend on higher, albeit less efficient, player count for scores.

It's like a real war...Empire and StarWars represent something similar to the Navy Seals. They don't get hit often, there's very few of them and they're very good at what they do. ANH and KBF are like Army infantry, loads of members so even if they get hit a lot, there's still plenty of other members to cover the spread.

I just go where the numbers tell me to go, as I am in no way part of the drama that comes from being in a top 5 alliance (although I was apart of a top 10 alliance at one point).

Numbers don't lie, so when an alliance takes the most catagories in all ranking systems (average and overall).
Breaking it down.
ANH leads in 6 catagories: Overall, resources spent, fleets, research, crew and defense (all in the overall catagory). Empire leads in 2, Overall and ships destroyed (both in average). There then comes a plethora of alliances who take leadership in just one catagory.
ANH leads in the most catagories even if you add up all the ranking systems...out of a possible 14 catagories (7 overall alliance, 7 average alliance), ANH has 6, Empire 2, StarWars/Federation Allied Republic/Rangers of the North/Captain Krunk (which has only 1 member, by the way, which I think skewers the whole alliance average thing as a viable way to base rank anyway since an insanely high ranking guy can make an alliance take stuff like research)/4 Horseman of the Apocalypse and Neoterran all have 1 catagory that they lead in.

Fact is that even if you include Alliance Average, Empire (or anyone else for that matter, I just keep saying Empire because they're the only ones who come close) just doesn't stack up statistically.

**Edit**
This only applies to Regular, Extreme is a wholly different story as the game physics are different and the two smaller alliances are leading..showing that they are capable of leading therefore showing that the ranking system isn't really that big of a sham. Members in smaller alliances know they have to play harder to keep up and that's a choice they make.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: darkset on March 21, 2010, 09:57:23 AM
what it comes down to for me is who can do the most damage and that would be the smaller alliance with the higher ranked members as a good part of the mass player alliances would have no hope in hitting one of then unless like 20 of them got together and you cant do that anymore and even the higher ranked members of the alliances would have little hope
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 21, 2010, 12:38:35 PM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
It's just a different strategy to achieve the same goal. Empire and StarWars depend on low number of highly efficient players (they do have the best players, even if I still believe that ANH is the best alliance...as I've said about 3 times now) whereas ANH and KBF depend on higher, albeit less efficient, player count for scores.

It's like a real war...Empire and StarWars represent something similar to the Navy Seals. They don't get hit often, there's very few of them and they're very good at what they do. ANH and KBF are like Army infantry, loads of members so even if they get hit a lot, there's still plenty of other members to cover the spread.

I just go where the numbers tell me to go, as I am in no way part of the drama that comes from being in a top 5 alliance (although I was apart of a top 10 alliance at one point).

Numbers don't lie, so when an alliance takes the most catagories in all ranking systems (average and overall).
Breaking it down.
ANH leads in 6 catagories: Overall, resources spent, fleets, research, crew and defense (all in the overall catagory). Empire leads in 2, Overall and ships destroyed (both in average). There then comes a plethora of alliances who take leadership in just one catagory.
ANH leads in the most catagories even if you add up all the ranking systems...out of a possible 14 catagories (7 overall alliance, 7 average alliance), ANH has 6, Empire 2, StarWars/Federation Allied Republic/Rangers of the North/Captain Krunk (which has only 1 member, by the way, which I think skewers the whole alliance average thing as a viable way to base rank anyway since an insanely high ranking guy can make an alliance take stuff like research)/4 Horseman of the Apocalypse and Neoterran all have 1 catagory that they lead in.

Fact is that even if you include Alliance Average, Empire (or anyone else for that matter, I just keep saying Empire because they're the only ones who come close) just doesn't stack up statistically.

**Edit**
This only applies to Regular, Extreme is a wholly different story as the game physics are different and the two smaller alliances are leading..showing that they are capable of leading therefore showing that the ranking system isn't really that big of a sham. Members in smaller alliances know they have to play harder to keep up and that's a choice they make.
Even if you go by the numbers, ANH ranks 793th in alliance-average (including 587th in fleet, 1402th in research, etc.--those numbers are embarrassing). Empire ranks at least decent in ALL categories and sub-categories (even total research!).
My point is to show that there are so many ways to interpret the numbers...so again I'll ask: why not just make it simple, throw them in a war and let them fight.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 21, 2010, 07:04:59 PM
I completely agree with you CodeB, ships destroyed points do determine how badass your alliance is. Or even how badass a player is (as a player can have the most in an alliance). I will readily admit that even if ANH is the best alliance right now, they are NOT, by far, the most badass. I am far more cautious of when an EMPIRE members probes me (as two of you guys did last night) than ANH...but I also realize that any alliance...hell any 3 alliances can join together and hit ANH all day and night and they probably wouldn't wrestle the top spots away from them.

It's all strategy I respect all strategies that work. I hit ANH everyday, up to half a dozen members. Their score never goes down, no matter what I take out. Got to give them props for that.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 21, 2010, 07:11:24 PM
To expand on that, in regular my ships destroyed ranking is in the under 3k ranked, but as a whole I'm 16k ranked. In Extreme I'm 1600th ranked, but my ships destroyed points are in the 400s somewhere. While they contribute largely to my score, I know I'll have match my real rank with my ships destroyed rank until I improve my game in all areas. Just because an alliance destroys more ships doesn't make them a better alliance, under that same logic there's some members of these great alliances that I outrank but they're still far superior players. I acknowledge that.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 05:07:57 AM
Since you like numbers, here are some numbers:

ANH rankings:
1st in alliance total (including 1st in Res Spent, 1st in Fleet, 1st in Research, 1st in Defense, 1st in Crew, and 3rd in Destroyed Ships)
795th in alliance average (including 840th in Res Spent, 588th in Fleet, 1378th in Research, 599th in Defense, 1239th in Crew, and 470th in Destroyed Ships).

Empire rankings:
1st in alliance average (including 5th in Res Spent, 7th in Fleet, 8th in Research, 37th in Defense, 70th in Crew, and 1st in Destroyed Ships)
12th in alliance total (including 21st in Res Spent, 13th in Fleet, 109th in Research, 21st in Defense, 66th in Crew, 2nd in Destroyed Ships)

Take a look at those numbers. If you want to look at all aspects of the game, like you claim, then take into account all those rankings.
Just as you say that when comparing alliances, you shouldn't just look at the top players. When looking at these rankings, you shouldn't just count the #1's and conveniently ignore that ANH ranks in the hundreds (even over 1000) over and over. In fact, Empire outranks ANH in 7 subcategories, while ANH outranks Empire in only 5.

Point is: there's no way you can objectively say: "The ranking says that ANH is best, no debate, period." Because there is no such thing as "the" ranking. There are many different rankings all saying different things, and if you take them all into account, the numbers actually favor Empire, or at least are inconclusive.
...Which is why I suggested the idea of letting them fight in a war (if ANH dares).

Imagine this: you are trying to figure out who's the better competitor/alliance/team/etc. Are you going to come up with 10 parameters to try to "measure" these competitors in terms of strength, speed, coordination, etc., or are you just going to let them face off against each other?

You said:
Quote
I hit ANH everyday, up to half a dozen members. Their score never goes down, no matter what I take out. Got to give them props for that.
Well, when it comes to Empire, you probably can't hit them in the first place, and if you do, not only will their score be maintained (it'll probably INCREASE actually), but YOUR score will likely go down.

You also said: "I respect all strategies that work." Well, let's find out which strategy works better: let them face off against each other.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: OptimusN1701 on March 22, 2010, 05:34:16 AM
Quote from: "vanvely"
Since you like numbers, here are some numbers:

ANH rankings:
1st in alliance total (including 1st in Res Spent, 1st in Fleet, 1st in Research, 1st in Defense, 1st in Crew, and 3rd in Destroyed Ships)
795th in alliance average (including 840th in Res Spent, 588th in Fleet, 1378th in Research, 599th in Defense, 1239th in Crew, and 470th in Destroyed Ships).

Empire rankings:
1st in alliance average (including 5th in Res Spent, 7th in Fleet, 8th in Research, 37th in Defense, 70th in Crew, and 1st in Destroyed Ships)
12th in alliance total (including 21st in Res Spent, 13th in Fleet, 109th in Research, 21st in Defense, 66th in Crew, 2nd in Destroyed Ships)

Take a look at those numbers. If you want to look at all aspects of the game, like you claim, then take into account all those rankings.
Just as you say that when comparing alliances, you shouldn't just look at the top players. When looking at these rankings, you shouldn't just count the #1's and conveniently ignore that ANH ranks in the hundreds (even over 1000) over and over. In fact, Empire outranks ANH in 7 subcategories, while ANH outranks Empire in only 5.

Point is: there's no way you can objectively say: "The ranking says that ANH is best, no debate, period." Because there is no such thing as "the" ranking--there are many different rankings all saying different things, and if you take them all into account, the numbers favor Empire, or at least are inconclusive.
...Which is why I suggested the idea of letting them fight in a war (if ANH dares).

+1

This "strategy" you speak of, of using their members en mass to boost their numbers reminds me of how the Russian army tried to fight WWI, just throw your under equipped troops in the meat grinder and hope it gets jammed up eventually.  

And we all know what happened to czarist Russia don't we?

Point is, it's a crappy strategy if it even is one.  The next two or three alliances could easily just merge and then outrank them.
Is that laudable? No.
Strategy? Definitely not.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 05:34:44 AM
Seriously, why the huge text? Is that you shouting at me? Are you in such huge disagreement with me that it's resolved to that, as you do realize that increasing the size of the text denotes a rise in the voice. Lol, didn't know I was getting to you that hard. I figured I'd have some trouble with Empire (and I have, Cutter and 420Penguin probed me last night) but geez!

You seem to care a lot about war, ships destroyed points and things of that nature, completely ignoring the rest of the rankings. I also noticed you didn't say anything about how the alliance "captain Crunk" has the highest alliance average for research despite it only having one member (a balatant manipulation of the ranking system if I ever saw it).

So let's say for a minute that ships destroyed points is the one and only way to determine true player/alliance worth.

If you look at this here picture I've included, I'm in the top 500 for ships destroyed points and above at least 1 member of Empire and 2 members of StarWars who are the best in both catagories. Under your own logic and the rules to join Empire, I'm eligible.

I think I'll turn in my app for joining tomorrow and tell them you sent me.

Enjoy!

**Edit**
Russia beat Germany, the most powerful army on earth at the time, with that tactic. +1 to you sir, thanks for proving that you can be 535th ranked in weapons but still beat out the army that's good at attacking people.

Godwin's Law, love it!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: OptimusN1701 on March 22, 2010, 05:38:18 AM
Zero, I'm honestly surprised that you have not applied to ANH, given that you believe them to be "the best"  :roll:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: BaronPlasmaVonTurret on March 22, 2010, 05:41:35 AM
Quote from: "OptimusN1701"
This "strategy" you speak of, of using their members en mass to boost their numbers reminds me of how the Russian army tried to fight WWI, just throw your under equipped troops in the meat grinder and hope it gets jammed up eventually.  
I think that's essentially what unimat0 uses as a game plan in war. Of their 810 members, none of them are what you could call heavy hitters yet they pick fights with top 30 alliances(avg). It's like throwing confetti at an armed guard hoping they will die of blood loss from the plethora of paper cuts they receive.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 05:44:08 AM
Quote from: "OptimusN1701"
Zero, I'm honestly surprised that you have not applied to ANH, given that you believe them to be "the best"  :roll:

I've openly stated that I despise being in huge alliances. I just quit one, in fact, despite it being a top ten contender.

The only point I'm trying to make is that you have to give credit where credit is due. I've also openly admitted that Empire and StarWars are the best players in the game, but ANH's strategy of "throwing troops in the grinder and hoping it clogs", as one guy put it, is a palpable one that shouldn't be tossed off because it isn't what everyone else does. I'm getting quite a bit of resistance though, lol.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 05:48:06 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
Seriously, why the huge text? Is that you shouting at me? Are you in such huge disagreement with me that it's resolved to that, as you do realize that increasing the size of the text denotes a rise in the voice. Lol, didn't know I was getting to you that hard. I figured I'd have some trouble with Empire (and I have, Cutter and 420Penguin probed me last night) but geez!
It's to highlight the numbers for you. I was hoping for a direct response against my points, instead of "Why make the font so large?" You spent a paragraph talking about...well, nothing. It adds nothing to the point of the discussion. Or do you actually have anything concrete to add?

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
You seem to care a lot about war, ships destroyed points and things of that nature, completely ignoring the rest of the rankings.
Wow, just wow, LOL. I listed all the rankings in large font, yet you say I'm "ignoring the rest of the rankings"? What am I ignoring? You say I "care a lot" about destroyed ship points, yet I simply listed them (just as I did for all the other rankings). I'm not giving special importance to any one ranking in particular. You are losing your mind dude, lol.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I also noticed you didn't say anything about how the alliance "captain Crunk" has the highest alliance average for research despite it only having one member (a balatant manipulation of the ranking system if I ever saw it).
Empire has not 1, not 2, not 3, ..., but several dozen members. In fact, it isn't that small really (ANH is more big than Empire is small). Your point is that a single high-ranking member can make a 1-member alliance and abuse that to take over the leader board, but that certainly isn't the case with Empire: 40-50 members is plenty to make a team.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
So let's say for a minute that ships destroyed points is the one and only way to determine true player/alliance worth.
LOL, again, when did I say that? I've listed ALL the rankings. When did I ever focus on destroyed points? I listed all the rankings with no bias.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
If you look at this here picture I've included, I'm in the top 500 for ships destroyed points and above at least 1 member of Empire and 2 members of StarWars who are the best in both catagories. Under your own logic and the rules to join Empire, I'm eligible.
Nothing to do with the point. We are comparing between Empire and ANH--you don't belong in neither, so your personal ranking is irrelevant even if you are #1. Nobody said all 44 members in Empire were the 44 top players--we are saying that Empire as a whole is the best alliance.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 06:03:16 AM
You're right, I am comparing Empire to ANH, although in the end we could be making the arguments for any small alliance vs big alliance match-up...but okay point by point.

1. Empire has higher rankings in all fields, but ANH leads way more of them than Empire does, even if they have epic fails on others.

2. War doesn't solve who the best alliance is, war only solves which alliance can do the most damage. Microsoft, with it's many, many employess make more money than the military does and Microsoft doesn't fight anyone.

3. Your original argument was that Alliance Average was better to determine who the best alliance truly was. If Captain Crunk can make his one manned alliance and lead in an alliance average catagory...then the whole system is useless. Aaron Moon in Extreme can make his own alliance and he's own the entire alliance average board. Overall points can't be won by one member, it can only be won by a slew of members. Honestly, if I'd never checked that you might've convinced me to meet you halfway on this, but seeing that Captain Crunk's one man army is better than everyone else is something...well my faith in that point system has dropped to zero.

4. You continually refer to ships destroy points when you refer to war, as that's the biggest reward most of these people get in a war. In the 2 wars I've been apart of, I didn't send one cargo ship. I only destroyed.

Quote from: "vanvely"
ANH rankings:
1st in alliance total (including 1st in Res Spent, 1st in Fleet, 1st in Research, 1st in Defense, 1st in Crew, and 3rd in Destroyed Ships)
795th in alliance average (including 840th in Res Spent, 588th in Fleet, 1378th in Research, 599th in Defense, 1239th in Crew, and 470th in Destroyed Ships).


Even if there's a lot of lower numbers in there, that's a lot of 1st places for an alliance that you keep telling me isn't any good. I've at least admitted that Empire is comprised of only the highest grade talent, so I've given you something at least but you can't ignore when an alliance sweeps the board in everything and is still third in overall ships destroyed points.

I showed my own ships destroyed points to be a jackass, as I think it's funny that my rank is WAY too low to ever be apart of Empire or StarWars yet there are instances where I outrank their ever elite members. I'm no pro, I'm barely above novice but the point is that the overall total matters. ANH's overall total is higher, their overall number of 1st places are higher, etc.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 06:27:59 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
1. Empire has higher rankings in all fields, but ANH leads way more of them than Empire does, even if they have epic fails on others.
If you want to judge the alliances as a whole, and claim that it's the best overall, then you have to look at all the rankings. ANH ranks in the several hundred to 1000+ range in HALF of the ranking systems. Even if they are #1 in the other half (which they aren't), that still doesn't make up for those epic failures.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
2. War doesn't solve who the best alliance is, war only solves which alliance can do the most damage. Microsoft, with it's many, many employess make more money than the military does and Microsoft doesn't fight anyone.
Microsoft is a company, the military is an army. Microsoft competes with other companies, the military competes with other militaries. Here, we are comparing two alliances, who are competing within the same pool.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
3. Your original argument was that Alliance Average was better to determine who the best alliance truly was. If Captain Crunk can make his one manned alliance and lead in an alliance average catagory...then the whole system is useless. Aaron Moon in Extreme can make his own alliance and he's own the entire alliance average board. Overall points can't be won by one member, it can only be won by a slew of members. Honestly, if I'd never checked that you might've convinced me to meet you halfway on this, but seeing that Captain Crunk's one man army is better than everyone else is something...well my faith in that point system has dropped to zero.
First, Empire has 40+ members, so they aren't abusing the system.
Second, it's because of this possible abuse that I suggest looking at #2, #3, #4's instead of just counting #1's. If some top-ranked lone player forms a one-member alliance and knocks Empire down to #2 in alliance average, then my system (looking at #2, #3, etc.) is more robust to this abuse, whereas if we just count the #1's, then the #2, #3, #4's ... all mean nothing?

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
4. You continually refer to ships destroy points when you refer to war, as that's the biggest reward most of these people get in a war. In the 2 wars I've been apart of, I didn't send one cargo ship. I only destroyed.
War means more than just destroyed ships. It means taking resources, employing strategies to esp, trap, ambush, and it means hindering opponents in terms of researching, developing mines/buildings, building ships/defenses, and even limiting people's activities.

Quote from: "AbsoluteZero"
Even if there's a lot of lower numbers in there, that's a lot of 1st places for an alliance that you keep telling me isn't any good. I've at least admitted that Empire is comprised of only the highest grade talent, so I've given you something at least but you can't ignore when an alliance sweeps the board in everything and is still third in overall ships destroyed points.
Those numbers only show that ANH is best in certain aspects, but not overall. Their rankings are only best in certain aspects, but terrible (not even good, not even decent, not even satisfactory, but really, just plain embarrassingly terrible) in other areas. There's no way you can have an alliance being "best" when HALF of the ranking systems places them at like #1000.

Quote from: "AbsoluteZero"
...my rank is WAY too low to ever be apart of Empire or StarWars yet there are instances where I outrank their ever elite members. I'm no pro, I'm barely above novice but the point is that the overall total matters. ANH's overall total is higher, their overall number of 1st places are higher, etc.
Your point is that even an average player like you can match Empire members in a certain ranking, hence those rankings are unreliable, right? Well, that's why I said to 1) look at ALL areas, to keep the evaluation balanced and complete, and 2) to take into account those ranked #2, #3, etc. so that a true alliance still gets recognized for being #2 to a one-member alliance.

It's funny because originally, your argument was "BFG designed the rankings, don't argue it. If it says ANH at the top, then it means ANH is the best, period." You ignored the fact that ANH don't have a single top-100 player, that ANH can't face up to Empire in a war, etc...you just stuck to that technicality of "Ranking = final word, end of discussion." Yet now, after realizing that there are many rankings (HALF of which places ANH in the #1000 range), you decide to argue against the rankings.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 06:54:26 AM
Okay I'm going to learn how to do the quotes thing like that...later.

Anywho.
1. I have looked at and considered their lower rankings in some catagories. This goes back to what I was saying before. Alliance average determines who has the [best players, that's the point of the alliance average system. Not to determine best alliance, but to determine which alliance has the best members. The best alliance doesn't need to have the best members and the best members don't necessarily have to be the best alliance. That's why I've been continually suggesting that the two remain separate as they measure two different things.

2. The military isn't a company? Clearly you've never worked for the military. Even so, if I were to agree with that statement (which I don't, I've been in the Army for 3 years) then that only validates the point that I was making earlier. ANH and Empire play with different strategies, so it would be unfair to pit them against one another in any contest. I don't know if I just haven't been apart of the SFC world long enough but in every other game I've played it's an acceptable strategy to mine resources and not attack anyone.

3. I never said Empire was abusing the system...I just said the system was easily abused and therefore not to be trusted.

4. I'm 16k ranked in regular (1700th in extreme) and I can ghost, boomerang, slow probe, ninja, group attack, 1 second fleet save, etc. Strategy in that regard isn't that difficult, it's all a matter of being active enough to use them. I'm sure if they tried hard enough, ANH could muster up enough people and teach them how to do that stuff too.

5. ANH has more number 1 positions than Empire. That's what I'm basing my argument on. Out of a possible 14 catagories, ANH wins 6, which is 3x as much as Empire. The idea that there's other ways to rank players is a matter of opinion as the leaderboard is the only way to actually do it.

6. I'm ranked 400-something in ships destroyed points and higher than those 3 starwars/empire guys because I'm badass and vigilant at attackingn people. That number is actually going to go up because in the time it's taken me to get from that point of the pic taken to now, I've raided 3 planets with ships on them. However, people don't base how good I am off of how efficient I am at destroying ships, they base it off of me overall. The same should be done with alliances. Just because one alliance does better in 1 or 2 catagories shouldn't overshadow the fact that one alliance did the best in 6 catagories. If this were the Olympics, team ANH would've won.

The original argument was that I thought that alliance average was a consolation prize because it doesn't measure alliance worth, it measured alliance member worth.

I'm not arguing the ranking system, I've simply expanded my argument to include the points you wanted to make. Overall, ANH is 1st in the most catagories, therefore it's only fair to say that they are the number 1 alliance.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 07:09:12 AM
1. That's purely your opinion that you consider alliance total to be more important than alliance average. Obviously, most people here think otherwise.

2. The military doesn't compete with Microsoft, that's the point. You don't try to decide between military and Microsoft when buying a PC. ANH does compete with Empire, or else the leader boards are meaningless.

3. If, like you said, Empire doesn't abuse that system, then the system cannot favor them. This doesn't affect our comparison of Empire vs ANH (neither of them are one-member alliances).

Quote
4. I'm 16k ranked in regular (1700th in extreme) and I can ghost, boomerang, slow probe, ninja, group attack, 1 second fleet save, etc. Strategy in that regard isn't that difficult, it's all a matter of being active enough to use them. I'm sure if they tried hard enough, ANH could muster up enough people and teach them how to do that stuff too.
4. Exactly. They also use those tactics, so let them have a war to decide who's better. Let them both "ghost, boomerang, slow probe, ninja, group attack, 1 second fleet save, etc." (as you say) and see who is more dominating. ANH has numbers on their side, Empire has quality--quantity vs quality, this is a timeless topic. How could this be unfair? If ANH's "throw in the meat-grinder" method works, then why not test it out? See how it fares against Empire.

Quote
Overall, ANH is 1st in the most catagories, therefore it's only fair to say that they are the number 1 alliance.
Again, that's your opinion. When evaluating anything, do you simply look at their advantages while ignoring their drawbacks? In school, you are not the top student by getting 100% in half your courses, then failing the other half. I consider that inferior to someone who gets 90% in all their courses. You would be the best in those 100% courses, but you aren't the best overall. To say that an alliance is best OVERALL, you should look at ALL rankings and see how well they do, taking into account both their strengths and weaknesses. If we average the rankings of ANH and Empire, it's clear who has the OVERALL best rankings.

Also, this isn't like the Olympics--having more athletes doesn't win more medals, only having the best athletes. In fact, if it was the Olympics, 666 comes on top, Empire comes in only 3rd, and ANH comes in at roughly 120th.

To try to bring this to a close, let's at least decide: What are we arguing about?
1) Whether ANH or Empire is undeniably the best, despite people's opinions, despite the fact that one side can crush the other in a war, despite the fact that ANH has nobody in the top-100, but simply because of one ranking in particular that might as well be God's sacred words and never questioned.

2) Whether ANH or Empire is the best in your opinion? Remember, in my very first response to you, I said that I'm fine with your opinion being whatever, but then you said that this isn't a matter of opinion--this is "fact," undeniable truth, and then you pointed to the leader board as if that was God or something.

Let's get clear on that first.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 07:32:43 AM
My argument is that, based on the leaderboards that are currently set up, ANH is the best alliance. No, they aren't the best in every catagory and yes they have epic fails in a few catagories (which you seem to enjoy pointing out) but in the end, even with the epic fails, they still win more number ones on the leaderboard as a whole than Empire.

Yes, they're under 1000 in some areas and you seem to think that it should overshadow their accomplishments...what I want to know is why doesn't their accomplishments overshadow their defeats? You say that because they're ranked so low in some areas it drags their value down. I say that even with these horrible stats in some areas, they STILL finish first in more catagories than Empire.

Empire and ANH are judged on the same leaderboard but they don't have the same strategy. It's unfair to pit two alliances against each other in a competition that one alliance excels at. I'm an attacker, not a miner. I play more like an Empire member than an ANH. I move around, attack a lot, make enemies then peacefully accept their surrender. The point I was trying to make that people who attack a lot already know all these tactics, so to have the best alliance know them isn't really all that impressive to begin with.

Perhaps Microsoft and the Army was too far, so I'll cool it down. It's like Microsoft and paid mercenary services. Mercenaries make a living off of violence, whereas Microsoft makes their living peacefully with legitimate business tactics. Both make money, just in different ways and it would be unfair to pit the two against each other since their styles are so different.

*Edit*
This isn't my opinion. This is the conclusion I made after looking at the leaderboards and interaction with the members (well what I could). Here's what I concluded. If I took out half of the Empire's players (very unlikely) it would take them from 12th overall to 30th overall. However, they boot players who drop below a certain point, so their alliance average would remain unaffected..even if you cut them in half! So even if ANH beat them in a war, they'd just drop the players who dropped too low and their average rankings would be unaffected. Therefore, it's not an accurate way to define how good an alliance is. If you cut ANH in half, they'd go from 1st to 2nd...and would only be behind by a few hundred thousand points. Yes, they're 1500th in some areas, but they've got 2nd place doubled in many areas and that's got to account for something. It does to me.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 07:44:12 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
what I want to know is why doesn't their accomplishments overshadow their defeats?
Neither overshadows the other. I consider them equally. When you evaluate something, do you look only at the pros and completely ignore the cons?
You are the one who's biased. I'm not. When you evaluate anything (a car, a team, a computer, ... basically anything) you have to look at their strengths and weaknesses in order to make a complete evaluation.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
You say that because they're ranked so low in some areas it drags their value down. I say that even with these horrible stats in some areas, they STILL finish first in more catagories than Empire.
They "still" finish in first? That word ("still") makes no sense. Doing bad in one category doesn't necessarily mean doing bad in another. After all, that's the point of having different categories--to measure different things. If all the categories are redundant, then what's the point?

Btw, read over my last question. (Regarding what are you arguing exactly--that this is a fact, or your personal opinion)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Bravicus on March 22, 2010, 07:47:04 AM
You have repeatedly pointed to one member alliances to say how alliance average is easy to exploit and abuse and therefor a bad indicator of how "good" an alliance is.  That you use them as an example of exploitation is irony of the highest level.  If their purpose is to have the highest alliance average they are guilty of exploitation (not to mention they've failed too since they don't have it), but it's the EXACT same thing with ANH.  ANH is as much of an anomaly as Captain Krunk, they have twice as many members as the next closest alliance (ANH-2228, UFP-1100).  These are not the alliances we should be judging things by they are either too large or too small to fall within the statistical norms of the game.  On the other hand alliances such as Starwars and Empire are well within what is normal for the game.

I've given up telling you flat out that ANH sucks but you should be able to see the flaw in your argument.  If the alliance average is flawed because I Bravicus could form my own 1 man alliance and instantly be on top of almost all categories, then doesn't it follow that the total alliance score is flawed when 2228 noobs (and let's face it with an average score of 34,000 they are noobs) can join one massive alliance and rise to the top?  Shouldn't the deciding factor of who is best be about how well they function instead what their score is?

I would argue that it is harder for me to have the highest average by myself then it is for them to get 2228 people to join.  After all Krunk does not have the highest average despite being just one player.

I thought when you were first claiming ANH was better it was to get a rise out of us, you know lol us a bit, but now I'm thinking you are one of those people who just refuses to accept that they are wrong.

Also as a final thing what the deuce are ghosting and boomeranging?  Boomerang sounds like it could be a reverse ninja but ghosting?  Does that mean looking for activity without probing or what?  Never heard of either of them.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
This isn't my opinion. This is the conclusion I made after looking at the leaderboards and interaction with the members (well what I could). Here's what I concluded. If I took out half of the Empire's players (very unlikely) it would take them from 12th overall to 30th overall. However, they boot players who drop below a certain point, so their alliance average would remain unaffected..even if you cut them in half! So even if ANH beat them in a war, they'd just drop the players who dropped too low and their average rankings would be unaffected. Therefore, it's not an accurate way to define how good an alliance is. If you cut ANH in half, they'd go from 1st to 2nd...and would only be behind by a few hundred thousand points. Yes, they're 1500th in some areas, but they've got 2nd place doubled in many areas and that's got to account for something. It does to me.
It's not an opinion, yet it's a conclusion YOU made?
Then you use some hypothetical method of cutting out half of the alliance members to determine what's best. What's up with that? Still not your opinion?

It's one thing to stick to an unpopular opinion, it's another to take one's conclusion and claim it's the fact.
Like I said: why do you look only at the pros, and not at the cons, when evaluating an alliance? The rankings tell me not only what the alliance is GOOD at, who also what they suck at. In order to make a more complete evaluation, I look at both the good and the bad. If they are good at 5 things and suck at 6 things, then I might rate them lower than another alliance that's good at only 2 things but suck at nothing.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 08:15:10 AM
Seriously? I thought that out of all that I'd get at least one person to at least understand where I was coming from. I guess not, therefore I give up. Not a lot of people think with the same process I do (I know that probably opens up for a joke, please don't make one). Well played.

If the leaderboards don't matter, then why even call it a game? If rankings are constantly up for debate despite being at the top of them, wouldn't that make this not a game but a sim? There's literally no way of grading anyone at all. It's not like I'm making this stuff up as I go along, there's a website with the rankings that everyone can see and ANH is at the top of it...but apparently them being there doesn't make them the best? I don't know, I guess I just haven't been around here long enough?

So, my new idea (and this is strictly opinion, no real numbers that I took from real leaderboards) is to remove the leaderboards altogether, since the very idea of getting to the top of one marks you as only the best in "one's opinion". If no one respects what the leaderboards say, then why even have them?

@Bravicus
I can see where you're coming from, the whole North Pole/South Pole thing with Crunk and ANH, but an alliance is suppose to be a people working together so at least ANH qualifies as one. Crunk is a phony, gave himself an alliance tag so he could feel good about himself for a little while and is truly exploiting the ranking system.

So who's with me? Down with the leaderboards! No one pays attention to them anyway! viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6259 (http://forum.playstarfleet.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6259)
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
If the leaderboards don't matter, then why even call it a game? If rankings are constantly up for debate despite being at the top of them, wouldn't that make this not a game but a sim? There's literally no way of grading anyone at all. It's not like I'm making this stuff up as I go along, there's a website with the rankings that everyone can see and ANH is at the top of it...but apparently them being there doesn't make them the best? I don't know, I guess I just haven't been around here long enough?
Now you've gone back to your old points: "Hey, look at the leader board. ANH is top, so they are the best." Again, my response is: There are MULTIPLE leader boards, and ANH is ranked around #1000 in half of them. THAT'S why it's open to debate.

Your opinion is to take a few rankings and call that the golden rule. My opinion is to look at ALL rankings and get a more COMPLETE evaluation of the alliances.

Your opinion is to look ONLY at the strengths/pros of an alliance. My opinion is to look at BOTH the pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses, and evaluate based on all that.

Is it any wonder that nobody agrees with you?

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
So, my new idea (and this is strictly opinion, no real numbers that I took from real leaderboards) is to remove the leaderboards altogether, since the very idea of getting to the top of one marks you as only the best in "one's opinion". If no one respects what the leaderboards say, then why even have them?
Sarcasm is always a good fallback once you've ran out of logical points. Nobody is ignoring the leader boards. If anyone's doing it, that's you: you are ignoring half of the leader boards. I'm actually looking at ALL the rankings. So really your argument fires back at yourself: you are the one who doesn't respect the leader board (at least half of it).
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 08:44:00 AM
I harped on the pros/strengths because you harp on the weaknesses/cons.

You're the one who said the leaderboards were up for debate, not me. I just looked, took what it said and brought it back here...that's all I did. You're the one who's telling me that just because an alliance is number 1 doesn't mean they're number 1 and you're the one who continually provided arguments to support it. All I've said is "well the leaderboard says this.".

I feel as though half the things I say go in one eye and out the other (since you can't hear me at all). I already said I'm done. You win and to continue to debate something you've already won is adding insult to injury. That's very unkind of you.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I harped on the pros/strengths because you harp on the weaknesses/cons.
I look at the pros and cons, I have said that many times, and now I've said it again. I recognize ANH's achievement in some rankings, but point out their weaknesses in other rankings. I never said ANH deserves to be #1000 just because they are ranked that low in many rankings, yet I also can't agree that ANH is the #1 just because they are ranked that high in many rankings--fair enough? What about you? You base your evaluation completely on their #1 rankings. You count their #1 rankings, and use that as final, completely losing count of how many cons they have.

Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I just looked, took what it said and brought it back here...that's all I did. ... All I've said is "well the leaderboard says this.".
LOL, do I have to say this again? There is more than one leader board. Wake up, lol. You didn't just "look at the leader board," no...you looked at only the leader boards that suit your point, while conveniently ignoring the rest. You base your conclusion only on the rankings that suit your point. I actually look at all the rankings. I did state that in my OPINION, alliance average > alliance total, but in my arguments, I readily acknowledged BOTH ranking systems as important things to consider.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 22, 2010, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: "vanvely"
You didn't just "look at the leader board," no...you looked at only the leader boards that suit you, while ignoring the rest. I look at all the rankings, not just the ones that favor Empire, nor the ones that favor ANH--I look at all of them.

I stated several times that ANH had their weaknesses. Like when I said I didn't think they'd win a war against Empire despite outnumbering them 50 to 1.

Quote from: "vanvely"
I recognize ANH's achievement in some rankings, but point out their weaknesses in other rankings

You had no problems pointing out the depth of their weakness which is why I didn't bother. I did agree that they had some epic fails in a couple of the ranking systems. However, you did not once point out the severity of their success. Like how the leaderboard catagories in which they were number 1 they currently lead by nearly double the 2nd place score...triple in one catagory. Sure their averages are epic fails, but their overalls are epic wins. Empire, in regular mind you, doesn't have that kind of domination in the catagories they're winning. To be beating the 2nd alliance in overall standings by 38 million points but then trying to hack on them by pointing out a couple hundred thousand points in a couple of other catagories...well it just shouldn't take away from what they've accomplished.

I absolutely love how I've admitted defeat but you're still pressing the issue. Is it so wrong that I don't think like the rest of you?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on March 22, 2010, 09:42:20 AM
Quote from: "AbsolutZero"
I stated several times that ANH had their weaknesses. Like when I said I didn't think they'd win a war against Empire despite outnumbering them 50 to 1.
Yet you didn't take that into account. Your simply counted the number of #1 rankings for each side, and called that final. You were aware of their weaknesses, but you didn't take them into account in your "formula."

I can praise ANH all day for being #1 in many rankings, but if when it comes to evaluating them, I place them at #1000 (simply because they did that bad in other categories), then it wouldn't be fair to them.

Quote from: "vanvely"
You had no problems pointing out the depth of their weakness which is why I didn't bother. I did agree that they had some epic fails in a couple of the ranking systems. However, you did not once point out the severity of their success. Like how the leaderboard catagories in which they were number 1 they currently lead by nearly double the 2nd place score...triple in one catagory. Sure their averages are epic fails, but their overalls are epic wins. Empire, in regular mind you, doesn't have that kind of domination in the catagories they're winning. To be beating the 2nd alliance in overall standings by 38 million points but then trying to hack on them by pointing out a couple hundred thousand points in a couple of other catagories...well it just shouldn't take away from what they've accomplished.
There's a difference between "pointing out" something and actually taking that into account to make your conclusions. You and I both acknowledged the pros and cons of each alliance, yet at the end, all you did was count the number of pros--your entire conclusion rests on that. Convenient eh? The cons don't take away from what they've accomplished, that's true (pros are pros, even if they have 100 cons), but they do take away from the quality of the alliance as a whole. Similarly, while pros do not erase cons, they do bring up the quality of the alliance as a whole. Both pros and cons should be considered.

So given that we should take pros and cons into account, your method of counting the "#1"s makes no sense--it only counts the pros, not the cons.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: gibbs on March 22, 2010, 11:02:00 AM
Is this the same ANH that refused a war with NOB so many times, so we (NOB) kicked your ass anyway? NOB is a training alliance, the best 1 at that!
ANH is nothing but an un-coordinated mass of numbers. ANH appeals to all those wannabe Jedi Knights.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: OptimusN1701 on March 22, 2010, 01:27:06 PM
Our last war request is still sitting there unanswered too
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on March 22, 2010, 01:51:27 PM
lol. apparently the ANH vs Empire is a heated one (admittedly, i started reading on page 13, got halfway to page 14 and got bored)

Empire agents - you guys are slipping  :lol:
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Noel G on March 23, 2010, 02:18:19 AM
AbsolutZero, your ignorance is worthy of legend.

Everyone else, I can't believe you still bother with this guy. Remember the old saying. "Never argue with an idiot, because someone passing by may not know the difference"
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Albert on March 23, 2010, 02:37:22 AM
Quote from: "Noel G"
AbsolutZero, your ignorance is worthy of legend.

Everyone else, I can't believe you still bother with this guy. Remember the old saying. "Never argue with an idiot, because someone passing by may not know the difference"

are you saying that i don't know the difference!? i oughta come pwn your fl33t  :lol: hahaha
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Bravicus on March 23, 2010, 03:11:04 AM
Well Albert you called me an Empire agent so maybe you can't tell the difference, lol, I just couldn't believe that someone was talking about how great A New Hope was in anyway that wasn't sarcastic.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Noel G on March 23, 2010, 10:33:23 AM
Lol Albert, I miss seeing the SW tag attached to your name. Congrats on being in the "most feared" poll although I'm a little upset that you have more votes that we do  :)  Looks like I'm gonna have to take Devo's advice and crack that whip. Maybe it's time to do some ballot stuffing. As for my fleet, you just keep your distance haha, although I could use a moon now that I think about it. Ahh well that should change oh in about 3 or 4 more hours if I'm lucky. Cross your fingers 4 me bro.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on March 23, 2010, 06:21:57 PM
Quote from: "Noel G"
AbsolutZero, your ignorance is worthy of legend.

Everyone else, I can't believe you still bother with this guy. Remember the old saying. "Never argue with an idiot, because someone passing by may not know the difference"

Well I'm sure as hell never going to be known for being a great player, so I might as well be known for something :)

I admitted defeat somewhere in the last 2 pages, Vanvely insisted on continuing a conversation I had no intention of ever even reading again.

Also, I conducted the entire debate without throwing one insult, it'd be nice to see you show the same courtesy, Noel
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 23, 2010, 11:29:09 PM
Quote from: "Joseph Zeug"
Quote from: "calebb on Thu Mar 18, 2010"
"Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?"

Joseph Zeug

Ehhhh....no.  Sorry, but you get no prize for an incorrect answer.


Is your name occasionally changed to "Joe" to protect your identity?
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Rob Ross on March 23, 2010, 11:40:44 PM
Quote from: "calebb"
Quote from: "Joseph Zeug"
Quote from: "calebb on Thu Mar 18, 2010"
"Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?"

Joseph Zeug

Ehhhh....no.  Sorry, but you get no prize for an incorrect answer.


Is your name occasionally changed to "Joe" to protect your identity?


Calebb actually got a LOL out of me for that one
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: tarro on March 24, 2010, 01:48:28 AM
Rob, Just wondering ....i have this mentally picture of Queensryche "Empire" Blaring in all the Welcome Centers..is this true?  Btw very good stuff!!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Rob Ross on March 24, 2010, 04:32:26 AM
Quote from: "tarro"
Rob, Just wondering ....i have this mentally picture of Queensryche "Empire" Blaring in all the Welcome Centers..is this true?  Btw very good stuff!!

No, they are silent, in observance of those who oppose us, because eventually, they all lose.

Empire.  Still Undefeated.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: tarro on March 24, 2010, 04:38:23 PM
Very Good Sir...Let the carnage continue!!
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on March 29, 2010, 03:47:43 AM
Well, not much left of the Empire these days, but people are still afraid!

(http://http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/369/stillscared.jpg) (http://http://img689.imageshack.us/i/stillscared.jpg/)

All I did was give this guy a moon and people are going (!) left and right.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Sid82 on April 01, 2010, 02:18:32 AM
Quote from: "calebb"
Well, not much left of the Empire these days, but people are still afraid!

(http://http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/369/stillscared.jpg) (http://http://img689.imageshack.us/i/stillscared.jpg/)

All I did was give this guy a moon and people are going (!) left and right.
sorry, that makes no sense, the guy you hit is not the person going into dip mode...just cause a person that happens to be in the same system as you goes into dip mode in no way means they are afraid of you...now if it had been the person you hit, then it might actually mean the person was afraid of you
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on April 02, 2010, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: "Sid82"
Quote from: "calebb"
Well, not much left of the Empire these days, but people are still afraid!

[*img]http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/369/stillscared.jpg[/img] (http://http://img689.imageshack.us/i/stillscared.jpg/)

All I did was give this guy a moon and people are going (!) left and right.
sorry, that makes no sense, the guy you hit is not the person going into dip mode...just cause a person that happens to be in the same system as you goes into dip mode in no way means they are afraid of you...now if it had been the person you hit, then it might actually mean the person was afraid of you


My apologies for not replying sooner - I didn't notice your response!

You obviously have never played under the tag Empire.  When you land in a new system, 2 or 3 people go (d) before you even launch your first attack.  It generally coincides with the moment they notice the tag Empire or the planet named "Empire Welcome Center."

And yes, the guy that I did hit went into diplomacy mode as well.  And the guy coming out of diplomacy mode in my previous picture (whodat (d!)) only stayed out for about a day - as soon as I recycled his fleet, he re-entered diplomacy mode.

(http://http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5337/diplox.jpg) (http://http://img148.imageshack.us/i/diplox.jpg/)


In conclusion, yes, people are still afraid of the Big Bad R.I.P. Empire.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: Sid82 on April 02, 2010, 04:30:40 PM
only a noob or an idiot is afraid of any alliance...all it takes is being able to fleetsave properly which is not hard in the least and that alliance can never touch you...that being said, just because a person goes into dip mode in no way means they are afraid of you...I am in dip mode right now simply because I am on vacation and not checking in every day...granted I will be coming out of dip mode the day I get home but still being in dip mode in no way means you are afraid of anyone
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: AbsolutZero on April 08, 2010, 07:38:24 AM
Quote from: "Sid82"
only a noob or an idiot is afraid of any alliance...all it takes is being able to fleetsave properly which is not hard in the least and that alliance can never touch you...that being said, just because a person goes into dip mode in no way means they are afraid of you...I am in dip mode right now simply because I am on vacation and not checking in every day...granted I will be coming out of dip mode the day I get home but still being in dip mode in no way means you are afraid of anyone

Agreed, I always wanted an Empire Welcome Center to move into my area so that, if nothing else, I can say that I didn't go into D-mode.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: vanvely on April 12, 2010, 07:07:17 AM
Looks like this one-member alliance called "Spanks your butt like a red headed stepchild" has taken 1st place in alliance average score  :lol: . He probably did that as a joke. This is why I look at both rankings. By alliance total, ANH is 1st. By alliance average, Spanks is 1st. But with a balanced view, taking both rankings into account, neither of them are close to the top. This dual-ranking system is working out pretty well--it's very robust.
Title: Re: Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Empire?
Post by: calebb on April 14, 2010, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: "Sid82"
only a noob or an idiot is afraid of any alliance...all it takes is being able to fleetsave properly which is not hard in the least and that alliance can never touch you...that being said, just because a person goes into dip mode in no way means they are afraid of you...I am in dip mode right now simply because I am on vacation and not checking in every day...granted I will be coming out of dip mode the day I get home but still being in dip mode in no way means you are afraid of anyone


Idiot, noob, whatever.  People are still afraid of the Big Bad Empire.

(http://http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/839/idiotornot.jpg) (http://http://img143.imageshack.us/i/idiotornot.jpg/)

And I only hit this guy once so far!

The Omega guys are standing strong - I'm surrounded by them and nobody has hit the (d) button yet.  I'll be sure to check in again when/if they do.