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Author Topic: Sad day to be KBF  (Read 31033 times)

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Offline Grace

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2015, 07:19:32 AM »
So on one hand you say we didn't enter the war fast enuff (isolationism)  .. and on the other we should stay out such things,  pick a direction.

yes, stay the feck out and worry about your own continent. The Nazis were already defeated before you entered the war and Europe is still suffering today the effects of US occupation. Hitler wouldn't have got as far as he did if he wasn't supplied with logistics by US corporations.
uh ohhhh... the fat kid got a nuke button!

Offline von Imhof

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2015, 12:47:19 PM »
Yes very true, the U.S. did block oil from Japan. Because they were attempting to slow down and stop what they were doing. What do you expect? Again, you bitch that we sat back, and then you claim it was their right to cowardly attack us?
'Typical shock and awe by the Americans.' Damn straight. You want to mess with the big boy on the block, you better be prepared to get your ass handed to you. The Japs were not 'preparing to surrender' at the time of the atomic drops. They were digging in. The Emperor was considering it, but was talked out of it by his advisors.

And I am going to say this one more time. The dropping of the bombs was a mutual discussion by BOTH countries.
And Germany was no where near on the ropes by the time of the invasion. Many new weapons were coming online that would have greatly effected the war. The Germans would not have worried about the western front had it not been for the U.S. And the Germans and Japanese coordinated more than you think. Yes it would have been a Germany vs Japan fight had the two been victorious. They were using each other.
'Corporate media propaganda' and Hollywood. I get my entertainment from Hollywood, not the news. I don't know what moron does. As far as the media, you take it with a grain of salt. If you hear something do your own research, which I do. I have had the unique experience of having family fighting on both sides of the war. And the perspectives are very interesting. The media has been way off many, many times.
And as far as helping Hitler-
Well Neville Chamberlain did such a great job holding him back.
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Offline censored

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2015, 01:53:36 PM »
An attack on a military target isn't cowardly. An attack on civilians is cowardly.

The embargo you put up was a half assed way to join the war effort without joining the war. So no, I won't give you any credit for it. While Europe bled you stayed out of the fighting, until the tide had already turned. And for going on 70 years the US has tried to claim they won the war. Well you didn't. You did nothing compared to everyone else. You did nothing compared to Canada or France or Russia or England and the list goes on.

So what you conferred with the English? At the time they were as bad as you are now. Trying to control the world with an empire. You think I'm defending them? Ha! This isn't about the English. This started with ignorant Americans claiming they saved the world. When they did no such thing. When they had less impact on the war than every other Allied country involved. You don't get credit when you sit on your asses while everyone else is actually fighting.
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Offline WGW

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2015, 02:38:04 PM »
lol we weren't the only nation close to making the bomb, and without US involvement in Europe, you may have won, but it would have been alot slower, and maybe that delay would have given Hitler the time he needed to show you what abuse of a power on that level really would have looked like.

Oh . .and as for Normandy ...

On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The American forces landed numbered 73,000: 23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops. In the British and Canadian sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British): 24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and 7900 airborne troops.

Get it? almost 50% of THE ENTIRE LANDING FORCE was American ... wonder how you would have fared without them.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 02:41:43 PM by WGW »

And he who wields white, wild magic gold is a paradox. For he is everything and nothing. Hero and fool. Potent, helpless. And with one word of truth or treachery, He will save or damn the earth. Because he is mad and sane. Cold and passionate, Lost and found

Offline censored

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2015, 02:46:19 PM »
Yes it would have taken longer. Yes many more people would have died. Yes the US helped significantly.

But that's a far cry from winning the war singlehandedly and saving the world.

As for Normandy, you wouldn't have landed a single soldier if not for Canada. You tried and failed. The English tried and failed. Then Canada did it, allowing the rest of you to do so.
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Offline von Imhof

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2015, 03:18:45 PM »
America has never claimed to have won the war. It was an allied effort. We even sided with a nation we did not like. I never hear on Memorial Day, or VE Day that it was America that won. It word 'allies' is always used.
And as far as staying out of it. It was Europes mess to begin with. Let's start with WWI. Everyone was ready to jump into a war. "Oh, it will be over by Christmas", most of the top brass said. Then as it dragged on the allies looked to the U.S. to tip the scales. Then after the victory, they literally try to pound the Germans to the Stone Age. Carved up their colonies like greedy little wolves. And when it came time to stand up to them, every one of them shrunk into the shadows. And you question why the American people did not want to get involved? It was Europe's mess, they should have cleaned it up. Cut their militaries to the bone. As far as I'm concerned it was not two wars, but one big mess.
And we are all damn lucky that the Japanese did not occupy Hawaii as was planned. The U.S. would have had one hell of a time getting those back and continuing the fight. The war would have dragged on for years more.
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Offline von Imhof

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #111 on: May 28, 2015, 03:23:33 PM »
Oh and your right, censored, an attack on a military target is not cowardly. But it is when you have a peace treaty in place and making nicy nice. It was cowardly to do on a Sunday, when families were out and about going to church, BBQ's, and other family functions.
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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #112 on: May 28, 2015, 03:50:35 PM »
America has never claimed to have won the war.

Oh really. I must have been imagining things my entire life. As a nation, officially, the US has never claimed such a thing no. But every single time the subject of WWII comes up and there's an American around, that's exactly what I hear. I see it on tv and in movies. I hear it on the radio. I see it coming from politicians (usually republican).
People from the US are the only ones I've ever heard try to take credit too. Even the Russians don't, and they are the ones who'd have the most right to (though it wouldn't be any more true for them. If not for Europe the Nazi's wouldn't have been halted before they reached Moscow).

Re: Pearl Harbour, I recall learning a long time ago that Japan had ordered their ambassador to deliver a declaration of war before the attack was launched. He screwed up. It wasn't supposed to be an underhanded surprise attack.

And I still don't believe it justified a nuclear response on civilian targets even if that were not the case.The US could have dropped a nuke on the Japanese fleet, or just offshore of shipyards, and the political impact would have been the same; with the destruction largely confined to military targets and a civilian population of millions being witness to the event instead of casualties.
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #113 on: May 28, 2015, 06:53:40 PM »
wow.....so let me understand what is being claimed here...

america saved the world at WW2, and now the claim america again saved the world in WW1...

just to put some things in to perspective on WW1...by the time the USA entered in 1917 (3 years AFTER the war started) around 22 million deaths and casualties had occurred.....in 12 months of the USA entering roughly 15 million deaths and casualties had occured....this makes a rough guesstimated (as it cannot by originally sourced) of 37+ million deaths and casualties..

England alone lost 1.2million service personal in conflict whilst the USA lost only around the 115 - 120k number....almost half of those deaths were caused by a plague...

In other news....the americans who think 'hey look we saved the world twice' should actually think long and hard......the american government was almost swayed by its population to side with germany......

Now.....you categorically state that the issue in eurpoe was OUR mess....hmmmmmmm you americans should REALLY REALLY learn your history and stop talking out ya ass's....

WW2 was a result of YOUR direct interference via your president.....woodrow wilson who demanded control of the conditioning of surrender and the terms/sanctions...Wilson stripped germany bare of natural rescources and forced the complete abolishment of any military development.  He placed HEAVY sanctions on germany to be policed/governed and  maintained by the french, british and other allied nations..


in WW2 the USA suffered more deaths and casualties than almost every other nation because they were led by imbeciles who always wanted to do things there way with the americans up-top....

If not for the british and the RAF eurpoe would have been lost....america would then have been shitting bricks facing a war on 2 fronts in both it's east and west coasts
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Offline von Imhof

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #114 on: May 28, 2015, 08:28:13 PM »


Re: Pearl Harbour, I recall learning a long time ago that Japan had ordered their ambassador to deliver a declaration of war before the attack was launched. He screwed up. It wasn't supposed to be an underhanded surprise attack.

Yes that was supposed to be the case. However the regular typist who was converting the Japanese declaration of over to English was out that day. A back up was brought in and he typed to slow. That's why they missed the deadline. The Ambassador waited until all pages were translated.  But everyone on the Japanese side knew this. The attack force going in knew that the declaration was not delivered. They went in anyway.

And kru. Both sets of my grandparents will tell you differently about who did the actual rapingand pillaging. Good ol France. Now I am no fan of that putz Wilson but that's a whole nother story.

And you guys are watching too many movies and TV. Who cares what they say in a fictional story. Geez lighten up.
And where were the Germans when they surrendered? On foreign soil. Where do you think they would have been without the Americans? Again it was a team effort. Allies. Not just America.
And during that period of time two countries became great allies.
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Offline WGW

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2015, 09:05:58 PM »
Actually, the document to be delivered before the attack was NOT a formal declaration of war, the actual declaration by Japan did not occur until 12/8... when published nationally in Japan. The document, while a clear precursor to war itself, made no formal declaration of War. So even if it had been delivered on time, the attack was still without a formal declaration.

And he who wields white, wild magic gold is a paradox. For he is everything and nothing. Hero and fool. Potent, helpless. And with one word of truth or treachery, He will save or damn the earth. Because he is mad and sane. Cold and passionate, Lost and found

Offline WGW

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2015, 09:11:19 PM »
The text of the document handed by the Japanese Ambassador to the Secretary of State at 2:20 p.m., December 7, 1941, reads as follows:

Memorandum

The government of Japan, prompted by a genuine desire to come to an amicable understanding with the Government of the United States in order that the two countries by their joint efforts may secure the peace of the Pacific Area and thereby contribute toward the realization of world peace, has continued negotiations with the utmost sincerity since April last with the Government of the United States regarding the adjustment and advancement of Japanese-American relations and the stabilization of the Pacific Area.
The Japanese Government has the honor to state frankly its views concerning the claims the American Government has persistently maintained as well as the measure the United States and Great Britain have taken toward Japan during these eight months.

It is the immutable policy of the Japanese Government to insure the stability of East Asia and to promote world peace and thereby to enable all nations to find each its proper place in the world.
Ever since China Affair broke out owing to the failure on the part of China to comprehend Japan's true intentions, the Japanese Government has striven for the restoration of peace and it has consistently exerted its best efforts to prevent the extension of war-like disturbances. It was also to that end that in September last year Japan concluded the Tripartite Pace with Germany and Italy.

However, both the United States and Great Britain have resorted to every possible measure to assist the Chungking regime so as to obstruct the establishment of a general peace between Japan and China, interfering with Japan's constructive endeavours toward the stabilization of East Asia. Exerting pressure on the Netherlands East Indies, or menacing French Indo-China, they have attempted to frustrate Japan's aspiration to the ideal of common prosperity in cooperation with these regimes. Furthermore, when Japan in accordance with its protocol with France took measures of joint defense of French Indo-China, both American and British Governments, willfully misinterpreting it as a threat to their own possessions, and inducing the Netherlands Government to follow suit, they enforced the assets freezing order, thus severing economic relations with Japan. While manifesting thus an obviously hostile attitude, these countries have strengthened their military preparations perfecting an encirclement of Japan, and have brought about a situation which endangers the very existence of the Empire.

Nevertheless, to facilitate a speedy settlement, the Premier of Japan proposed, in August last, to meet the President of the United States for a discussion of important problems between the two countries covering the entire Pacific area. However, the American Government, while accepting in principle the Japanese proposal, insisted that the meeting should take place after an agreement of view had been reached on fundamental and essential questions.

Subsequently, on September 25th the Japanese Government submitted a proposal based on the formula proposed by the American Government, taking fully into consideration past American claims and also incorporating Japanese views. Repeated discussions proved of no avail in producing readily an agreement of view. The present cabinet, therefore, submitted a revised proposal, moderating still further the Japanese claims regarding the principal points of difficulty in the negotiation and endeavoured strenuously to reach a settlement. But the American Government, adhering steadfastly to its original assertions, failed to display in the slightest degree a spirit of conciliation. The negotiation made no progress.
Therefore, the Japanese Government, with a view to doing its utmost for averting a crisis in Japanese-American relations, submitted on November 20th still another proposal in order to arrive at an equitable solution of the more essential and urgent questions which, simplifying its previous proposal, stipulated the following points:

The Government of Japan and the United States undertake not to dispatch armed forces into any of the regions, excepting French Indo-China, in the Southeastern Asia and the Southern Pacific area.
Both Governments shall cooperate with the view to securing the acquisition in the Netherlands East Indies of those goods and commodities of which the two countries are in need.
Both Governments mutually undertake to restore commercial relations to those prevailing prior to the freezing of assets.
The Government of the United States shall supply Japan the required quantity of oil.

The Government of the United States undertakes not to resort to measures and actions prejudicial to the endeavours for the restoration of general peace between Japan and China.
The Japanese Government undertakes to withdraw troops now stationed in French Indo-China upon either the restoration of peace between Japan and China or establishment of an equitable peace in the Pacific Area; and it is prepared to remove the Japanese troops in the southern part of French Indo-China to the northern part upon the conclusion of the present agreement.
As regards China, the Japanese Government, while expressing its readiness to accept the offer of the President of the United States to act as 'introducer' of peace between Japan and China as was previously suggested, asked for an undertaking on the part of the United States to do nothing prejudicial to the restoration of Sino-Japanese peace when the two parties have commenced direct negotiations.

The American Government not only rejected the above-mentioned new proposal, but made known its intention to continue its aid to Chiang Kai-shek; and in spite of its suggestion mentioned above, withdrew the offer of the President to act as so-called 'introducer' of peace between Japan and China, pleading that time was not yet ripe for it. Finally on November 26th, in an attitude to impose upon the Japanese Government those principles it has persistently maintained, the American Government made a proposal totally ignoring Japanese claims, which is a source of profound regret to the Japanese Government.

From the beginning of the present negotiation the Japanese Government has always maintained an attitude of fairness and moderation, and did its best to reach a settlement, for which it made all possible concessions often in spite of great difficulties. As for the China question which constitutes an important subject of the negotiation, the Japanese Government showed a most conciliatory attitude. As for the principle of non-discrimination in international commerce, advocated by the American Government, the Japanese Government expressed its desire to see the said principle applied throughout the world, and declared that along with the actual practice of this principle in the world, the Japanese Government would endeavour to apply the same in the Pacific area including China, and made it clear that Japan had no intention of excluding from China economic activities of third powers pursued on an equitable basis. Furthermore, as regards the question of withdrawing troops from French Indo-China, the Japanese Government even volunteered, as mentioned above, to carry out an immediate evacuation of troops from Southern French Indo-China as a measure of easing the situation.
It is presumed that the spirit of conciliation exhibited to the utmost degree by the Japanese Government in all these matters is fully appreciated by the American Government.

On the other hand, the American Government, always holding fast to theories in disregard of realities, and refusing to yield an inch on its impractical principles, cause undue delay in the negotiation. It is difficult to understand this attitude of the American Government and the Japanese Government desires to call the attention of the American Government especially to the following points:

The American Government advocates in the name of world peace those principles favorable to it and urges upon the Japanese Government the acceptance thereof. The peace of the world may be brought about only by discovering a mutually acceptable formula through recognition of the reality of the situation and mutual appreciation of one another's position. An attitude such as ignores realities and impose (sic) one's selfish views upon others will scarcely serve the purpose of facilitating the consummation of negotiations.
Of the various principles put forward by the American Government as a basis of the Japanese-American Agreement, there are some which the Japanese Government is ready to accept in principle, but in view of the world's actual condition it seems only a utopian ideal on the part of the American Government to attempt to force their immediate adoption.

Again, the proposal to conclude a multilateral non-aggression pact between Japan, United States, Great Britain, China, the Soviet Union, the Netherlands and Thailand, which is patterned after the old concept of collective security, is far removed from the realities of East Asia.

The American proposal contained a stipulation which states - 'Both Governments will agree that no agreement, which either has concluded with any third power or powers, shall be interpreted by it in such a way as to conflict with the fundamental purpose of this agreement, the establishment and preservation of peace throughout the Pacific area.' It is presumed that the above provision has been proposed with a view to restrain Japan from fulfilling its obligations under the Tripartite Pact when the United States participates in the war in Europe, and, as such, it cannot be accepted by the Japanese Government.
The American Government, obsessed with its own views and opinions, may be said to be scheming for the extension of the war. While it seeks, on the one hand, to secure its rear by stabilizing the Pacific Area, it is engaged, on the other hand, in aiding Great Britain and preparing to attack, in the name of self-defense, Germany and Italy, two Powers that are striving to establish a new order in Europe. Such a policy is totally at variance with the many principles upon which the American Government proposes to found the stability of the Pacific Area through peaceful means.

Whereas the American Government, under the principles it rigidly upholds, objects to settle international issues through military pressure, it is exercising in conjunction with Great Britain and other nations pressure by economic power. Recourse to such pressure as a means of dealing with international relations should be condemned as it is at times more inhumane that military pressure.
It is impossible not to reach the conclusion that the American Government desires to maintain and strengthen, in coalition with Great Britain and other Powers, its dominant position in has hitherto occupied not only in China but in other areas of East Asia. It is a fact of history that the countries of East Asia have for the past two hundred years or more have been compelled to observe the status quo under the Anglo- American policy of imperialistic exploitation and to sacrifice themselves to the prosperity of the two nations. The Japanese Government cannot tolerate the perpetuation of such a situation since it directly runs counter to Japan's fundamental policy to enable all nations to enjoy each its proper place in the world.
The stipulation proposed by the American Government relative to French Indo-China is a good exemplification of the above- mentioned American policy. Thus the six countries, - Japan, the United States, Great Britain, the Netherlands, China,, and Thailand, - excepting France, should undertake among themselves to respect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of French Indo-China and equality of treatment in trade and commerce would be tantamount to placing that territory under the joint guarantee of the Governments of those six countries. Apart from the fact that such a proposal totally ignores the position of France, it is unacceptable to the Japanese Government in that such an arrangement cannot but be considered as an extension to French Indo-China of a system similar to the Nine Power Treaty structure which is the chief factor responsible for the present predicament of East Asia.

All the items demanded of Japan by the American Government regarding China such as wholesale evacuation of troops or unconditional application of the principle of non-discrimination in international commerce ignored the actual conditions of China, and are calculated to destroy Japan's position as the stabilizing factor of East Asia. The attitude of the American Government in demanding Japan not to support militarily, politically or economically any regime other than the regime at Chungking, disregarding thereby the existence of the Nanking Government, shatters the very basis of the present negotiations. This demand of the American Government falling, as it does, in line with its above-mentioned refusal to cease from aiding the Chungking regime, demonstrates clearly the intention of the American Government to obstruct the restoration of normal relations between Japan and China and the return of peace to East Asia.
*(sic) In brief, the American proposal contains certain acceptable items such as those concerning commerce, including the conclusion of a trade agreement, mutual removal of the freezing restrictions, and stabilization of yen and dollar exchange, or the abolition of extra-territorial rights in China. On the other hand, however, the proposal in question ignores Japan's sacrifices in the four years of the China Affair, menaces the Empire's existence itself and disparages its honour and prestige. Therefore, viewed in its entirety, the Japanese Government regrets it cannot accept the proposal as a basis of negotiation.

The Japanese Government, in its desire for an early conclusion of the negotiation, proposed simultaneous ly with the conclusion of the Japanese-American negotiation, agreements to be signed with Great Britain and other interested countries. The proposal was accepted by the American Government. However, since the American Government has made the proposal of November 26th as a result of frequent consultation with Great Britain, Australia, the Netherlands and Chungking, and presumably by catering to the wishes of the Chungking regime in the questions of China, it must be concluded that all these countries are at one with the United States in ignoring Japan's position.
Obviously it is the intention of the American Government to conspire with Great Britain and other countries to obstruct Japan's effort toward the establishment of peace through the creation of a new order in East Asia, and especially to preserve Anglo-American rights and interest by keeping Japan and China at war. This intention has been revealed clearly during the course of the present negotiation.
Thus, the earnest hope of the Japanese Government to adjust Japanese-American relations and to preserve and promote the peace of the Pacific through cooperation with the American Government has finally been lost.

The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the American Government that in view of the attitude of the American Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiations.

December 7, 1941

And he who wields white, wild magic gold is a paradox. For he is everything and nothing. Hero and fool. Potent, helpless. And with one word of truth or treachery, He will save or damn the earth. Because he is mad and sane. Cold and passionate, Lost and found

Offline CoolHand

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #117 on: May 28, 2015, 09:42:22 PM »
WOW. So if I understand this totally off topic thread I guess all of you are saying war sucks? The USA sucks, Canada sucks, Japan sucks, Europe sucks, Russia sucks. I get it, the world we live in sucks. Instead of continuing on with this pointless thread why don't all of you do one thing today to make the world suck just a little bit less. Do something to make someone's life just a little bit better. Me? I made a donation to the Red Cross

Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #118 on: May 28, 2015, 09:47:41 PM »


And where were the Germans when they surrendered? On foreign soil. Where do you think they would have been without the Americans? Again it was a team effort. Allies. Not just America.
And during that period of time two countries became great allies.

just guessing here, but the formal surrender of the German Reich was in ermmmmm....what's the place....oh ye...GERMANY...

however...just to add some little controversy, the formal surrender of what was left of the Reich party couldn't technically surrender as Germany had already been split into East and West.  Many of the German leaders fled to the West to avoid capture by the Russians....but you know...that's an entirely different subject...but ummm ye!!!!! the surrender officially occurred in Berlin...which last i checked was Germany
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Offline von Imhof

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #119 on: May 29, 2015, 12:11:43 AM »
I was speaking of WWI. German soldiers were in France.

And well stated WGW. Good show.

Coolhand, the world we live in does not suck. However, war does. And I do try to make it a little better every day. Thank you very much.
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