Sad day to be KBF

[Grace]

Serve for noble causes only? Seriously? Grace, have you a clue how the military works? You don't get to pick and choose when and where you care to serve, if you sign the line, you go where you are needed or ordered. Trying to place blame on those who serve for mistakes made by politicians is plainly ignorant. They cannot see into the future and think .. hey! something I don't personally believe in will happen in 1.3 years .. I better wait to sign up!

These people, throughout time have PROVIDED you the freedom to even make that statement. Some gave all in that sacrifice too. They exist today PRIMARILY to defend your country from you losing those precious freedoms.  Have they been called into do things we can now see in hindsight as mistakes? Absolutely, but their job was never to make that decision in the first place, their job is to go.

It aint perfect, never will be, but it beats the hell out of what some others have to live with.... like Kim Jong meathead executing his cabinet member with a freaking AA gun for falling asleep in a meeting. Try living there awhile, and I am sure you'll come to love your freedoms, and those who protect them, a tad more

I understand perfectly how the military works. I appreciate that soldiers are sent to where they are required without choice. However, last time I checked, there was no national service requirement in the US so every soldier has the choice, first and foremost, on whether to sign up or not.

Also you have no idea what it is like in North Korea and neither do I so I am not going to speculate and will maintain an open mind. Suffice to say, however, if you do a bit of research and dig into the history of the Korean war, you will see why it is within the interests of the US government to paint it as a brutal dictatorial regime. Saudi Arabia is also a brutal regime. However, one which is good for business so their human rights abuses are kept on the down low.

[WGW]

I don't need a crystal ball to tell you where there is a dictator, there is a problem with human rights on a serous level Grace... and if the report of the cabinet member was a fake, I am fairly certain we would have heard some kind of rebuttal out of North Korea, so I take it as fact.

And yes, our military is 100% voluntary service.... which is precisely why I choose to honor them, one and all.  Nobody made them sign up, and while there may be times they are sent to do a job that is questionable, in my heart that does not tarnish them. They stand a guard that I do not, to insure that I, and my children and grandchildren, can enjoy our freedoms and preserve our way of life.  If they are needed to defend this great nation from enemies outside or within, they stand at the ready to do so, and have sworn their very lives to do so.  I for one cannot imagine a greater sacrifice than to be willing to lay down your life, and I am eternally grateful for their service.

Note I am not defending the decisions of the politicians, I am merely honoring those who serve this country.

[von Imhof]

Cen is correct in his assessment, besides WW2, in which case it was simply another case of all the other cases and nothing different like he, too, believes. They wont teach you in your history books in the US how US industries such as Ford were supplying the Nazis with logistics to help keep their campaign going. In WW2 the Yanks were in it for the profit and built an Empire on the back of European devastation, which they still profit from to this day.

And what the English and French will not tell you that after WWII, they were so hard up on holding onto the oil in the Mid-East they installed dictators to keep things in check. We all see now how that worked out. Correct??
As pointed out by WGW, we can go round and round about the political points. But that's not the point. We are talking about those who serviced who don't/didn't give a rats ass about the politics.

[von Imhof]

I understand perfectly how the military works. I appreciate that soldiers are sent to where they are required without choice. However, last time I checked, there was no national service requirement in the US so every soldier has the choice, first and foremost, on whether to sign up or not.

Also you have no idea what it is like in North Korea and neither do I so I am not going to speculate and will maintain an open mind. Suffice to say, however, if you do a bit of research and dig into the history of the Korean war, you will see why it is within the interests of the US government to paint it as a brutal dictatorial regime. Saudi Arabia is also a brutal regime. However, one which is good for business so their human rights abuses are kept on the down low.

Grace,

Your first paragraph should be highlighted. Since the Vietnam War, we in the State's have not had a draft. Those of us you served chose to do so.

Your second paragraph is false. We do know what goes on in North Korea and it is disgusting. Not only human rights violations, but MAJOR quality of life issues.

[censored]

Saudi Arabia is no better. Nor is Qatar, the country with the worlds biggest slave population. Literally.

I don't agree with Grace on honouring soldiers, but if you think the US isn't the worlds biggest hypocrite when it comes to foreign policy, you have another think coming. At least half the dictators in the world in the last 20 years were installed by the US. The reason Cuba went on the US's shitlist is because they threw the US dictator out. Half of South America has had to depose American dictators.

And much of the reason North Korea is in such bad shape is because the US made it that way.

[von Imhof]

Censored - why don't you agree about honoring soldiers? Forget the politics. Every country has its hands in the cookie jar. They are always looking to get the upper edge.

[von Imhof]

And you are way off on North Korea. Their government did that to themselves. And their people eat that up.

[censored]

No, the US screwed up North Korea by strangling North Korea. YOU are way off.

[censored]

Censored - why don't you agree about honoring soldiers? Forget the politics. Every country has its hands in the cookie jar. They are always looking to get the upper edge.

Are you suggesting I shouldn't honour them? I thought you also disagreed with Grace on that point.

[von Imhof]

Are you suggesting I shouldn't honour them? I thought you also disagreed with Grace on that point.

Disregard this point. I misunderstood.

However North Korea. So one country, the United States, is strangling them? Their buddies in China, and Russia, can't help them? And even if they are being so strangled, how are they managing such a military presence? Developing nukes? How about they develop more farm fields. Miniaturizing nukes? No easy feat. How about miniaturizing their military budget.
That country is going to cause a major issues if lil' Kim keeps up his nonsense. You think South Korea was happy when the North sunk one of their destroyers. It took a lot to walk that back.

[censored]

No their 'buddies' (and I use the term very loosely) can't help them. Not much anyway. They do what they can, in their own interests, but why would Russia or China risk war with the US over North Korea?
When you are cut off from 99% of the global economy, you suffer.
They manage a military presence because sanctions can only do so much damage. In North Koreas case, every time more sanctions appear the people suffer more than the government.
First the US let Japan annex the whole peninsula, then the US got the UN to divide the country in half, and then the US imposed crippling sanctions DECADES before North Korea ever had a nuke. The fact is that North Korea began their nuclear programme to defend themselves. That they actually got some is testament to their capabilities.

The current government might as well have been placed there by the US. Most everyone in North Korea supports the government because they know damn well that the US is not and has never been their friend. A century of bullying will make you an enemy, no matter what country it is that you bully.

[von Imhof]

Well that's my point. Sanctions were in place long before they had a nuke. So what do they decide to do? Let's develop a nuclear weapons and screw feeding our people. And for defense you say? That is a weak argument. Who was going into invade them? No one.
And even if all that was the State's fault, what does that have to do with what goes on over there. Concentration camps that revival those of the Nazi's. Shooting someone because they disagree. Free thought over there is only free as long as you agree with lil' Kim. Notice he is the only one who has any weight on him? He never misses a meal, but his people do.
We can sit here and fill this thread up until the cows come home. It's never going to change our opinions. I'm done high jacking this thread. To those who served/serve, I salute you. Moving on.

[Grace]

I will make one final comment on this before I leave you all to it.

First and foremost, if you sign up to join the army, then you sign up for everything that goes with it. If you want to honour this, then good for you. While I do realise that there  are some soldiers who believe they are fighting a noble cause, if the truth be told, every war the US has engaged in since and during WW2 has been to further their own geopolitical ends. When they tell you that you are serving to protect you country, what they really mean is that you are protecting their global interests.

2ndly, there are more human rights abuses in the US than there are in North Korea so before you start pointing fingers at any other country, you need to look a lil closer to home first.

Finally, people join the military for different reasons. Some are indoctrinated since childhood with all of that justice and liberty crap. Others are do it as a way out of poverty or whatever other reason. There are also some who actually believe that they are defending their country when, in fact, it is not their country which needs defending but rather the other way round.

I respect servicemen in principle if they believe they are joining up for the right reasons. However, I wont respect a soldier just because he joined up and has bee shot at. Really, so what? It is your job and what you signed up for and my respect goes first and foremost to those refugees and devastated communities who's lives have been destroyed by your warped notions of justice, honour and democracy. Seriously, go and preach to an orphaned child who's parents were killed by US drones that you are serving for the right reasons and how worthy you are of their respect.

[Grace]

Your second paragraph is false. We do know what goes on in North Korea and it is disgusting. Not only human rights violations, but MAJOR quality of life issues.

No, you don't. You only know what propaganda your corporate media feeds you. North Korea is a buffer zone for china... who the US are doing their best to contain and restrain. Take a look at a world map and you will see that the US has Both China and Russia surrounded with military bases.

North Korea has nukes to protect itself from US imperialism.

[censored]

Well that's my point. Sanctions were in place long before they had a nuke. So what do they decide to do? Let's develop a nuclear weapons and screw feeding our people. And for defense you say? That is a weak argument. Who was going into invade them? No one.

When the worlds most powerful country puts a major military base complete with atomic weapons right on your border, a little paranoia is to be expected. I'd have done exactly the same thing. And now that they've done it, they have the capability to royally screw the US over if the US tries to invade. And the US knows it. So to a certain extent North Korea is safe.
Until China finishes with the southern seas and steps on them, anyway.

And even if all that was the State's fault, what does that have to do with what goes on over there. Concentration camps that revival those of the Nazi's. Shooting someone because they disagree. Free thought over there is only free as long as you agree with lil' Kim. Notice he is the only one who has any weight on him? He never misses a meal, but his people do.

Because of US sanctions. The people weren't starving until the US screwed them.
And if it's so bad that North Korea does it, why is the US doing it in Guantanamo? Why does the US imprison more people than anyone else? Why does the US ally with the brutal Saudi's and the slave traders in Qatar? It's hypocrisy.