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Author Topic: Sad day to be KBF  (Read 28525 times)

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Offline Swanvesta

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #180 on: July 23, 2015, 01:57:56 PM »
here, I just pulled this off a site, I'm sure we can find counterpoints or more to substantiate either side.. but, I did watch this entire conflict, from start to finish, not on T.V. but over the internet, constantly going from source to source seeing the differing opinions and statements of fact..

"Georgian forces had responded to attacks by secessionists in South Ossetia, an ethnic enclave in northern Georgia, by pummeling civilian areas in the region's capital, Tskhinvali, and seeking to retake the territory by force. Moscow, which had supported the province's secessionist government for more than a decade, retaliated with a full-scale invasion, sending aircraft and armored columns into South Ossetia and targeting key military and transport centers inside Georgia proper. Russia also beefed up its military presence in Abkhazia, another secessionist province, in the northwestern corner of the country. Russian troops had been present in both enclaves as peacekeepers, deployed with Georgia's consent 15 years earlier. When the Georgian attack on South Ossetia killed Russian soldiers and threatened the fragile status quo, Moscow intervened with lightning speed. "
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #181 on: July 23, 2015, 02:01:28 PM »
ok ok....there is much i could i could say, but i enjoy many of the freedoms i have!

reason i did not respond to your statement of incursions into Russia, is simply because these do not happen by any NATO/UN forces or countries apart of those organisations...When i speak of incursions, i specifically mean crossing into that countries sovereign territory.  As for your statement these happen 'more regularly' i would advise you seriously go do research and stop speaking your opinion as fact!

In the last 12 months, there have been more than 2 dozen recorded incursion over the UK, and when i say incursion i mean entering UK sovereign territory. An incursion is derived by meaning an unplanned or un-agreed flight path or entry into areas of interst, waters, airspace or land..

*edit*
The QRA located at 2 separate airbases are scrambled on a daily basis to intercept Russian bombers and other aircraft as well as first intercept on Russian military shipping.  The Royal Navy intercepts and escorts Russian shipping 2 - 3 times per week.  Whilst some Russian movements is scheduled this only accounts for a rough 5% of total alerts made to the RAF and RN.  These intercepts which occur DAILY are outside of nation sovereign territory and therefore classified as 'international' flight paths/waters.

It is absolutely no secret that the UN/NATO countries or Russia for that matter fly, sail and perform exercises close to a nations territory, but that is simply each and every nation flexing their muscle.

Sure, the US during the cold war era did incur on and over Russia, just as Russia did with around 22 other countries..

As for China (as you mentioned that earlier) they have more or less nothing to do with this current situation, China spy on everyone...which is funny, considering you referred to the US and 'her' allies because the funny thing was, China WAS an ally..

More over, by referring your statement as the 'US and 'her' allies, you seem to be solely pointing the derogatory finger at the United States.

Now, unlike the majority of people, i do not take my information from the UK media sites or US media sites unless i can correlate this.  I also read the Russian news on events to formulate an equal and unbiased chain of actions and events....

I don't simply sit there and say...'yep, Russia got it bad, but it's not all their fault'
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 02:09:28 PM by kru »
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #182 on: July 23, 2015, 02:03:08 PM »
here, I just pulled this off a site, I'm sure we can find counterpoints or more to substantiate either side.. but, I did watch this entire conflict, from start to finish, not on T.V. but over the internet, constantly going from source to source seeing the differing opinions and statements of fact..

lmao...i just said exactly the same thing :)

I never trust what i can't see without my own eyes, and if i have to rely on other sources i always at other media sources and not just the obvious ones
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Offline Grace

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #183 on: July 23, 2015, 02:10:55 PM »
thing is, when you have an OPINION on matters like this, you have to bend over, take it and shove it where the sun doesn't shine....

An opinion means nothing based on actual factual evidence..  I do like however how you deliberately tried to troll my entire post there, but intentionally left no comments based on the fact that i can 100% guarantee about the number, type and location of incursions..

that swanny, is what you call trolling...you can't argue against absolute fact, so you make a dozen aspersions about other things.

Kru, are you here to reclaim your title as the most idiotic poster on the forum? I don't think anyone is disputing incursions made by Russia, but simply pointing out that this works both ways and is normal practice on both sides. however, you are only given one side of the picture in order to influence your perception to see Putin as the bogey man.
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Offline Swanvesta

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2015, 02:12:10 PM »
reason i did not respond to your statement of incursions into Russia, is simply because these do not happen by any NATO/UN forces or countries apart of those organisations...When i speak of incursions, i specifically mean crossing into that countries sovereign territory.  As for your statement these happen 'more regularly' i would advise you seriously go do research and stop speaking your opinion as fact!

In the last 12 months, there have been more than 2 dozen recorded incursion over the UK, and when i say incursion i mean entering UK sovereign territory. An incursion is derived by meaning an unplanned or un-agreed flight path or entry into areas of interst, waters, airspace or land..

It is absolutely no secret that the UN/NATO countries or Russia for that matter fly, sail and perform exercises close to a nations territory, but that is simply each and every nation flexing their muscle.

Sure, the US during the cold war era did incur on and over Russia, just as Russia did with around 22 other countries..

As for China (as you mentioned that earlier) they have more or less nothing to do with this current situation, China spy on everyone...which is funny, considering you referred to the US and 'her' allies because the funny thing was, China WAS an ally..

More over, by referring your statement as the 'US and 'her' allies, you seem to be solely pointing the derogatory finger at the United States.

Now, unlike the majority of people, i do not take my information from the UK media sites or US media sites unless i can correlate this.  I also read the Russian news on events to formulate an equal and unbiased chain of actions and events....

I don't simply sit there and say...'yep, Russia got it bad, but it's not all their fault'

So as long as you don't get caught it doesn't matter?

It is a matter of fact, that the U.S. does operate spy drones over other countries sovereign territories.. (I'm not going to speak about her allies here, because I don't have proof of that.) I'm quite sure the Iranians never agreed to have drones with imaging capabilities flying over their country.

The excuses that come afterwards is just political nonsense, anyone with half a brain can see that, yep they got caught nope they wont admit it. This is happening NOW every day, you talk about 2 dozen occurrences but completely neglect to mention the ongoing habitual breaches in international law. (not to mention the cyber attacks, but that's another story)

The reason I say the U.S. and her allies, is because by an large we're in it together, whether the plane gets shot down with stars and stripes or union jacks (yes i know we use circles) painted on them is irrelevant.
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Offline Grace

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2015, 02:13:17 PM »
Kru, you're not who you say you are. 15 years scrubbing oil off a plane doesn't make you army intelligence.
 

 ;D
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2015, 02:14:38 PM »
Kru, are you here to reclaim your title as the most idiotic poster on the forum? I don't think anyone is disputing incursions made by Russia, but simply pointing out that this works both ways and is normal practice on both sides. however, you are only given one side of the picture in order to influence your perception to see Putin as the bogey man.

go learn about what exactly an incursion is you dimwit
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #187 on: July 23, 2015, 02:19:39 PM »
well....it is true to say that the UK have only  had spy plane capability (being the MQ9-reaper) for roughly 18 months in a fully operational aspect (and not many of them to say that)

One thing about these incursions everyone is so adamant on, as well as negating  is the fact that the UK, US, China, Germany have some of the most advanced and sophisticated satellites in orbit.  Not to mention that Germany actually has some of the most precise and high deff scanner equipment (yes, all pointed at Russia's doorstep)

I do not, and have never tried to state that there is not a game of cat and mouse that occurs between Russia and the West..

However...when i refer to an incursion, i make specific reference to the Russians flowing a nuclear capable bomber up the Cornish main land
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #188 on: July 23, 2015, 02:26:19 PM »
Kru, you're not who you say you are. 15 years scrubbing oil off a plane doesn't make you army intelligence.

lol....if you were not so cynical you would kinda a funny....for a second

just in that single sentence you made no less 5 assumption

but that's ok.....i don't have to dream, i don't have to be glued to the internet to know and understand how the real world actually works
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Offline Swanvesta

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #189 on: July 23, 2015, 02:28:17 PM »
well....it is true to say that the UK have only  had spy plane capability (being the MQ9-reaper) for roughly 18 months in a fully operational aspect (and not many of them to say that)

One thing about these incursions everyone is so adamant on, as well as negating  is the fact that the UK, US, China, Germany have some of the most advanced and sophisticated satellites in orbit.  Not to mention that Germany actually has some of the most precise and high deff scanner equipment (yes, all pointed at Russia's doorstep)

I do not, and have never tried to state that there is not a game of cat and mouse that occurs between Russia and the West..

However...when i refer to an incursion, i make specific reference to the Russians flowing a nuclear capable bomber up the Cornish main land

You should use google, there has been an awful lot worse than that :D

But, jokes aside, no not you kru, you stay right where you are the punchline hasn't come yet ;)

hehe.. anyways.. as I was saying, We've embraced the new democratic Russia, they're part of the G8 group of industrialised nations, we have openly engaged them in both economic and military discussions and operations.. If there wasn't a subversive plot, why is it, these "incursions" mean soo much?

If a friend of mine walked my girlfriend home, would i declare war, or say thanks bud
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #190 on: July 23, 2015, 02:36:39 PM »

If a friend of mine walked my girlfriend home, would i declare war, or say thanks bud

but then is your friend likely to drop a bomb on her?  likely to sacrifice so little to get what he wants?...not to be rude, b ut sadly a poor description.....you friend runs the risk of alienating a single person, having a fight.....there is no risk of life..

If you wish to say 'thanks' to the Russians for flying through UK airspace with nuclear bombers you go right ahead......frankly, that scares the shit out of me and almost everyone else i know.  A lot is yet to be written, but it is for sure that the actions of Russia are far more aggressive (and that's yet another fact) than the actions against them.

i cannot directly speak from fact past 2002, but i can assure you that between 1997 - 2002 QRA were dispatched at least once daily to intercept 'foreign aircraft' (as that is the official term).

You have stated it in  posts though, Russia is not really the country to be watching and/or worried about.....they are simply flexing their muscles against the West to say...'hey look at us....we're here and we're back'

the 2/3 countries i would be much worried about is China, Iran and NK
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Offline Swanvesta

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #191 on: July 23, 2015, 02:53:20 PM »
but then is your friend likely to drop a bomb on her?  likely to sacrifice so little to get what he wants?...not to be rude, b ut sadly a poor description.....you friend runs the risk of alienating a single person, having a fight.....there is no risk of life..

If you wish to say 'thanks' to the Russians for flying through UK airspace with nuclear bombers you go right ahead......frankly, that scares the shit out of me and almost everyone else i know.  A lot is yet to be written, but it is for sure that the actions of Russia are far more aggressive (and that's yet another fact) than the actions against them.

i cannot directly speak from fact past 2002, but i can assure you that between 1997 - 2002 QRA were dispatched at least once daily to intercept 'foreign aircraft' (as that is the official term).

You have stated it in  posts though, Russia is not really the country to be watching and/or worried about.....they are simply flexing their muscles against the West to say...'hey look at us....we're here and we're back'

the 2/3 countries i would be much worried about is China, Iran and NK

Your assumption ouch.. If you've ever seen a mental health patient with an adrenal reaction get angry you'll know that "no risk of life" isn't true, but it was just a simpler version of the same truth. If we're all friends, why be so worried? A well used way of thinking, regarding this issue, is that, people who don't trust often can't be trusted themselves.. I'm not a big subscriber to this idea, but I'm biased :D

Well, there's the point man.. maybe at an unconscious level you understand the threat more clearly than this feeble display of national pride gives credit for.

Lets take that back to the earlier discussion and add a little conjecture for good measure...

We both agreed earlier, that no-one would win a nuclear war and no-one would press the trigger to start it. We've also had stated that we have diplomatic relations with Russia and they have been co-operative in global events.

To me it seems an irrational fear, then to say and I quote "scares the shit out of me", one based on prejudice from an era gone by.

If this is the level of understanding, then I state categorically that Russia is not a problem in the slightest, because they've red, white and blue in their national flag (I wonder how much of that is truth or jest at times.)

As for immediate threats, we only have threats to our goals. The rest of the world knows, we're in control, they just want to keep their homes.
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2015, 03:43:01 PM »
sort of...

(now i can use some of my training :D )

It is a rational fear, not sure how you can conclude it is irrational.  It is rational for a number of reasons (i'll try to quickly them) but it is based on an irrational concept, a concept which has both proof and context.

so...now you are wondering why it is a rational fear?!?

firstly, lets just say i served and leave it at that (some will understand)

secondly, i  have seen up close and personal with both US and Russian military hardware...and i assure you, they are a combination of deadly, destructive and very accurate..

thirdly (albeit not Russia so i grant that) nuclear weapons (at a much lower grade than  compared to today) have been used in anger and the effectiveness of them is well documented in both death, destruction and forcing the other side to surrender.

finally, no military doubles or triples its annual budget for defence overnight then requests modifications to be made without significant reason.....more over, these occurs in conjunction (with the UK) embarking on major upgrades to its own military whilst reducing numbers (carriers, type 45's etc etc)..

It is irrational based on the fact:

1. Russia would have used nukes in the past.
2. everyone has nukes, so a first strike offensive is irrelevant.
3. should a first strike be launched, counter strikes consisting of 2 phases would be launched, the second of these strikes would decimate 2/3 of the globe, the first would aim to destroy any inbound IBCM's before they even re-entered the atmosphere.

sometimes it is true, that the enemy of my enemy is my friend....My worry with Russia is that whilst Putin wants what is best for Russia, he is embarking on his path with the old style USSR ideals in mind....after all...you do not get to be a high ranked KGB officer without significant indoctrination.

Physically (if you want to look at it from this stand point) Russian is the biggest problem and the most/more likely to tip the scales and begin/start a new WW....However, whilst Russia is very blatant, loud and noisy about what it is doing it only presents 'some'  serious and significant concern....

China on the other hand are becoming an emerging risk for a number of reasons.....
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Offline Swanvesta

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2015, 04:12:33 PM »
sort of...

It is a rational fear, not sure how you can conclude it is irrational.  It is rational for a number of reasons (i'll try to quickly them) but it is based on an irrational concept, a concept which has both proof and context.

so...now you are wondering why it is a rational fear?!?

O.K. I'm cutting your post a little to save space on the page and stop any interested parties from having to read over and over again, but, with the 4 reasons you gave, I don't see (perhaps my own ignorance, but I'm willing to wager not) a good reason to fear a Russian bomber given the current circumstances, unless of course, we're planning or have already provoked them, perhaps my friend decided to try and grope my girlfriend?

It is irrational based on the fact:

Now, this is where I'm seriously having trouble following you... You say its a rational fear, but give elements to the counterpoint? But, you've yet to add in anything regarding our mutually held opinion that it'll never happen. Yes we've seen the devastation caused, yes we know we'll all die if we go nuclear in war-time. That is why it's irrational to fear a nuclear bomber. Not only that, but also, the U.S. also have a defence grid of anti-warhead silos based in countries all over the world. This is why the Russians come flying/sailing around our borders.. We've done it to them.. just in a nice 2-faced diplomatic ass funking kinda way.

sometimes it is true, that the enemy of my enemy is my friend....My worry with Russia is that whilst Putin wants what is best for Russia, he is embarking on his path with the old style USSR ideals in mind....after all...you do not get to be a high ranked KGB officer without significant indoctrination.

I'm quite sure, prolonged service in any regime, governmental office etc etc, will "indoctrinate" a person in some fashion or another.. just look at nationalism as a prime example of this, we're born into a country, we're raised to believe, think, judge and behave a certain way purely because of where we live, we become prideful of that and our ability to be the best (dya like that?? not subtle enough?) which then produces the adverse effect of; resenting, damning, avoiding, isolating, anything that doesn't follow the guidelines.

Physically (if you want to look at it from this stand point) Russian is the biggest problem and the most/more likely to tip the scales and begin/start a new WW....However, whilst Russia is very blatant, loud and noisy about what it is doing it only presents 'some'  serious and significant concern....

I have a conspiracy theory of my own about this.. but its long and I don't want to take this completely off topic, but needless to say, I think the Russians are not a threat, with a little more information I'd go out on a limb and say they're actually partners of ours.

China on the other hand are becoming an emerging risk for a number of reasons.....

There are several obstacles in our path to N.W.O. (please don't confuse this with the idea that some secret organisation is working towards world domination and will sacrifice your babies, I just donned the term because it fits, a new world order with one governing body) China is definitely one of them, how much so I'm unsure of, you could say they're already being primed for utter collapse, given the current financial situations.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 05:24:52 PM by Swanvesta »
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Offline kru

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Re: Sad day to be KBF
« Reply #194 on: July 23, 2015, 04:36:36 PM »
i had already depicted the exact reason you should fear a Russian bomber. The Russian bombers exploiting UK airspace and are guilty of incursions into our airspace are the old TU-95's, which were specifically designed for degradation in the assumption of air attack in order to deliver a nuclear pay load to its target, or as close as possible.  This of course shows serious concerns of a nations air defence as well...

to better understand something, which i described...an irrational fear of something rational...

spiders.....there are thousands of species of spiders known to man...the majority are harmless to us, some will cause problems and some will kill you.

It is rational to fear some spiders, as they can kill you, but the same fear of a common garden wolf spider is pretty irrational.

Therefore, it is pretty rational to be worried about what 'could' happen, but irrational to outright believe it will.

The rational fear (based on human history) is that nations will go to war over the smallest and silliest of things.  It is also rational to look back and see that the US dropped 3 nuclear bombs.

The irrational fear is thinking and believing that this is what countries want, and that should war ever break out we will all be using nuclear bombs.

There is a huge difference in indoctrination and institutionalism, what you refer to there is the later. 
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