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Author Topic: Strategy Guide  (Read 45643 times)

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Offline Nathan Voges

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2009, 06:29:42 AM »
One thing I'm curious about:  is there any random element in the combat resolution?  I haven't been in many battles, but is seems like the larger fleet always wins.  While that's satisfyingly predictable if you're the attacker, what hope does that give to defenders?

I've played a lot of games, electronic and non-electronic.  I do enjoy this format, and will continue playing for the forseeable future.  Here are some observations about the system:  First, most battles seem to be recreations of Pearl Harbor, where a player catches the opposing fleet in port and obliterates them because the incoming fleet is bigger or better equipped.  Had the Starfleet Commander combat resolution been a part of the Pacific Theater in WW2, the US would have lost both the battles of Midway and Leyte Gulf, just because the attacking Japanese forces were numerically superior.  While it stands to reason that a stronger player should predictably defeat a weaker player, I think some sort of variable of luck to instill some "fog of war" would be helpful.  Right now, things seem too cut-and-dried for my taste.  I'd like to see a defending fleet have a chance to inflict disproportionate losses against an attacker.  Otherwise, there seems to be no reason to station a combat fleet at a planet, at all.  If you fleet save, and can't get back when you thought you would, you just might be toast.

As I understand them, tactics for being successful as a lower level player are akin to qualifying for Medicaid in the US:  in order to get the Gov't to pay your medical bills, you have to spend yourself into poverty to qualify.  The same tactic seems to be at work, here.  One must constantly spend resources down to poverty levels to keep from being noticed by some higher ranked player who will raid you when you're not looking.  Additionally, the best defensive tactic is to send fleets away so they can't participate in the defense of the planet, which defies a certain amount of common sense.

In real life, a naval fleet, or any military force, that is confronted with a superior enemy force will do one of 3 things:  Stand and fight, Fight and withdraw, or just withdraw.  A *mobile* defending force should be able to flee, subject to certain limitations.  What if this were  in place:  

(continued)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Nathan Voges

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2009, 07:06:25 AM »
(continued from previous)

What if the combat ratios were compared prior to the battle with the following outcomes:  If the attacking fleet is inferior or no more than 2:1 odds against the defending fleet, the battle commences.  If the odds are higher than 2:1, then a sliding scale sub-routine of engagement or evasion is implemented.  For each whole-number ratio above 2.0, the defending fleet has a 20% chance of not engaging the the attackers.  If the attackers are 4:1, then the defenders have a 40% chance to flee, at 5:1 a 60% chance.  The ratio is capped at 6:1/80%, so there is always a chance the defending fleet will be "caught" by the attackers.  This ability can be tied into the Espionage rating of the defending player, where a 1% bonus per Espionage level is achieved, with a maximum evasion rating of 90%.  This all happens before the battle.  If the defending fleet evades, the attack commences verses the remaining ground units.

During the battle, the losing side, whether attacking or defending, should also have the ability to withdraw from combat and minimize losses.  This dovetails nicely with the current system.  Once either side loses 50% of its force (fleet and ground for defenders), a "morale check" of sorts kicks in to see how long the mobile attackers or defenders will remain.  At 50% losses, there is a 20% chance the remaining fleet will flee, leaving the ground units to finish the battle, if defenders, or cease the battle, if the losing side is the attacker.  Once the losing side reaches 40% of original strength, there is a 40% chance of withdrawal, up to 80% when the losing side is at 20% of original strength.  Again, bonuses could be added through AI rating, or similar, not to exceed 90%.  In real life, units are rarely destroyed, 100%, but there is always the chance that a unit will fight to the death, or be trapped and compelled to do so.  Adding these sub-routines to the current combat system will add realism without sacrificing playability.  The numerical ratios I've used in the examples are suggestions, of course.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline aomega

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2009, 05:12:47 PM »
You are missing the deterrent effect that defences and powerful fleets have. If you are scanned and the potential attacker sees they are outgunned or the result of the battle is not certain, they simply don't attack. If someone does launch an attack, you do get the chance to assess whether your fleet stands a chance of defending. If not, best get out the way. The problem is you can't make this choice while you are logged off which is why you have to fleet save. I don't think there is anything wrong with the battle mechanics per se, although the strategic depth of this game is currently a bit limited.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Nathan Voges

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2009, 03:15:12 AM »
Right, but what constitutes a "big fleet"?  I learned the hard way that a fleet led by 6 Athenas is no match when attacked by 30 Athenas, etc.  For me to match that, I'll have to build for a couple of weeks.  In the meantime, my existing fleet, no matter how strong, can be completely destroyed if I misjudge the interval of my fleet-save.  I like this game, but my life doesn't revolve around it.  Based on the time I spend, there's maybe a one in 12 chance I'll be online when an incoming attack is launched.  Additionally, if the attacker is in, say Singapore, and launches while I'm asleep, there's no way for me to respond, regardless.  The other thing I don't like about the fleet save is that if I come back to the game earlier than anticipated, my fleets are stuck on some fool's errand to save their titanium hides.

How about this:  a "Fleet Save" button, that is 100% customizable, say up to 24 hours, but with a recall button that brings the fleets back to the home planet within 1 hour's time.  This would simulate the fleets being on active local patrol.  Bottom line, I think the game would be better if the way to protect one's fleets were less convoluted.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline aomega

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2009, 05:52:16 PM »
Why don't you build massive defenses instead of massive fleets? If you don't overbuild your fleet and keep it proportional to the size of what you use it for (attacks or missions) and use defenses to protect your mines,  you should be able to find the right combination to deter attacks. You can still fleet save but only as a precaution. If your planets are near a lot of action (mine aren't) and you keep being hit by the same players, consider finding somewhere quieter.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Stav

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2009, 02:11:45 AM »
Quote from: "Nathan Voges"
...I like this game, but my life doesn't revolve around it.  Based on the time I spend, there's maybe a one in 12 chance I'll be online when an incoming attack is launched.  Additionally, if the attacker is in, say Singapore, and launches while I'm asleep, there's no way for me to respond, regardless.  The other thing I don't like about the fleet save is that if I come back to the game earlier than anticipated, my fleets are stuck on some fool's errand to save their titanium hides.

How about this:  a "Fleet Save" button, that is 100% customizable, say up to 24 hours, but with a recall button that brings the fleets back to the home planet within 1 hour's time.  This would simulate the fleets being on active local patrol.  Bottom line, I think the game would be better if the way to protect one's fleets were less convoluted.

This is the dead-on problem for those of us who want to play the game somewhat casually.  And the proposed solution is pretty good as well, IMO.  

I understand that as a casual player, I'm never going to be up there with the people who spend all their hours online playing this game.  And I'm OK with that.  

But I would actually like to be able to play when I do log on.  If I fleet save, I may or may not be able to actually play with my fleets, based on how lucky my guess was about when I'd be able to check back in.  Meh.  

The system as it is set up pretty much tells us casual gamers to go find another game, more in fitting with our schedule.  That's fine if it is what the designers intend (but I'd appreciate being told so more explicitly, rather than having to waste time figuring it out).  But if the game is intended to be welcoming to both hard core and casual gamers, it needs a tweak.  Otherwise, all the casual gamers will slowly go diplo or abandoned.

Quite simply, as many people have noted, "fleet-saving" is a perverted mechanic.  It doesn't really make sense narratively, and to many, it seems like exploiting a loophole in game design.  However, the proposal above actually does make some kind of sense -- you send your fleet out on a mission to patrol the outer edges of your system; then you recall them when you return to the game.
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Offline Klarg

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2009, 01:07:35 PM »
I understand the importance of fleet saving. However, when I go to my Fleet page and put in a coordinate of an uncolonized planet, it comes back with "Planet can not be found". Do I need a certain level of tech? How is this done????????
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Offline poeticmotion

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2009, 04:13:15 PM »
Quote from: "Klarg"
I understand the importance of fleet saving. However, when I go to my Fleet page and put in a coordinate of an uncolonized planet, it comes back with "Planet can not be found". Do I need a certain level of tech? How is this done????????

 You can't go to an uncolonized planet (unless you're sending a colony ship.) You have to send your fleet to an existing world. However, if you send your fleet to another world on a transport mission, it can't be attacked.

However, any resources you load in your fleet will automatically be dumped at the world you send them to, so you can't really resource save this way, just fleet save. To resource save, you need the Dionysus. I just got mine yesterday after dedicating all my resources to getting it since I exited newbie protection. That waqy, you can send your fleet and resources on a 'harvest' mission and they bring your resources back to you. Added bonus: You're completely invisible on a harvest mission...even the world you fleetsave to can't see you.
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Offline Lord Admiral Follett

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2009, 10:56:19 PM »
Quote
First, most battles seem to be recreations of Pearl Harbor, where a player catches the opposing fleet in port and obliterates them because the incoming fleet is bigger or better equipped.

90% of real life battles are the equivalent of Pearl Harbor.
Quote
Had the Starfleet Commander combat resolution been a part of the Pacific Theater in WW2, the US would have lost both the battles of Midway and Leyte Gulf, just because the attacking Japanese forces were numerically superior.

Upsets do happen in this game, largely due to random targeting. After all there is a chance of every ship to hit the ship it was designed to kill. But for practical purposes this doesn't happen much, hence "fodder fleets." The 3 battle techs give you some chance to be better equipped, and having ships with rapid fire will let you surprise an opponent quite frequently. In real war though, the side that is bigger/better equipped generally wins in the end (ie: US victory in WWII, US victory in the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, Allied victory at Stalingrad...etc...etc...etc...)

Quote
While it stands to reason that a stronger player should predictably defeat a weaker player, I think some sort of variable of luck to instill some "fog of war" would be helpful. Right now, things seem too cut-and-dried for my taste. I'd like to see a defending fleet have a chance to inflict disproportionate losses against an attacker. Otherwise, there seems to be no reason to station a combat fleet at a planet, at all. If you fleet save, and can't get back when you thought you would, you just might be toast.

The fog of war is called random targeting, and it defies all explanation. Defending fleets operate in sync with defenses, which allow them to inflict INCREDIBLE losses on an attacker if the defense is planned...besides, higher level players will occasionally "ninja" for you, and block an attacking fleet. This game has a very complex, and in my view, very fun battle system.

Good post though
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Offline aomega

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2009, 11:41:28 PM »
Surely it was an Allied victory in WWII?
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Offline Sarah Bellum

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2009, 12:18:11 AM »
I'm sorry, this may not be related enough to stay here, but after reading this topic, I had to ask a question based on the following quote:

Quote
So it's now been 3 weeks since the reset and we're seeing some definite trends emerge. A few players are separating themselves from the pack, and we've checked out some data to see why.

And now I have to ask, does this game reset periodically? And if so, what constitutes the "end game" and what would the strategy for that be? And how would one start over? Are you randomly placed with a new undeveloped planet the same as when you first begin playing?

Just an FYI, I only began playing a few weeks ago, so I'm still reading and trying to learn how best to play the game.
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Offline Laggynate

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2009, 01:39:22 AM »
Quote from: "Sarah Bellum"
I'm sorry, this may not be related enough to stay here, but after reading this topic, I had to ask a question based on the following quote:

Quote
So it's now been 3 weeks since the reset and we're seeing some definite trends emerge. A few players are separating themselves from the pack, and we've checked out some data to see why.

And now I have to ask, does this game reset periodically? And if so, what constitutes the "end game" and what would the strategy for that be? And how would one start over? Are you randomly placed with a new undeveloped planet the same as when you first begin playing?

Just an FYI, I only began playing a few weeks ago, so I'm still reading and trying to learn how best to play the game.
The game only reset once when beta testing was finished.
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Offline Fpoole

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2009, 09:45:47 PM »
I just sent my fleet out to the largest numbered planet in my home system. On a cargo mission with no cargo. At 10 percent speed. This is my attempt at "Fleet Save" a concept that makes very little sense to me. Don't you want your fleet to defend your home planet if attacked? What happens to your mines, etc. when attacked if the fleet's away? I guess it makes sense to save the fleet, but if your other stuff is going to get pummeled, you're still kind of screwed, right?

Why not incorporate some function of strategy to battles? If the only strategy is to run away, why, that's no fun.
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Offline aomega

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2009, 11:22:58 PM »
"Don't you want your fleet to defend your home planet if attacked?"

That depends on the size of the invading fleet. If it is superior, you will get smashed and are better off out the way. If it is inferior, why would the attacker have bothered attacking knowing your fleet can beat it? The issue is you cannot make a decision to defend or flee when you are not logged on. That's why you fleet save when you are offline, as a precaution. Logic dictates that you will only suffer an attack if the attacker has assessed that they will win. So hide your fleet (and resources) when you are logged off.

This game is more about predation than war.
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Offline Obsidian

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Re: Strategy Guide
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2009, 08:39:31 AM »
I'm just waiting for the day where I can be part of a well timed group defend that catches the attacker totally off guard.  So far I haven't even come close to being part of that though.  With my luck I may end up being the victim.
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