contact
August 15, 2018, 05:52:19 AM

Author Topic: Defense: A Strategical Discussion  (Read 12429 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Daven

  • Member
  • Posts: 250
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2010, 03:41:54 AM »
The defense cited is formidable but not impenetrable. Nothing in the game is.

In addition to providing defense - it also makes the player a TARGET.

There are several groups out there that are into turtle busting - not for the profit - but for the challenge.

Some have cited launches (in a group effort) of as many as 170 IPM's at a single target - that would hurt this defense - but not destroy it - but no defenses rebuild from IPM's.

Others have mentioned fleets of 10 or 15 Zeus.  While it would take several attacks to do it - It can be done.

And as this game continues - with no limits on fleet size - or number of ships in a single group attack - scale will be going up.  Note the battle reports on page 2 and 3 of this link: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6860

The three attackers had :
500 Prometheus
1005 Hades
861  Athena
892 Poseidon
333 Apollo's

All for the glory of taking down a Hephaestus Attack Platform.   Your defense would fail that attack.

So while it is very strong and impressive -and unlikely to be attacked for profit  -  it can be defeated if the challenge is the goal and not profit.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline origon

  • Member
  • Posts: 491
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2010, 09:15:00 AM »
You're forgetting that anyone attacking the defense posted 2 posts above this (the 100 plasmas) is gonna use a hell of a lot of fodder, not proms + hades + athenas...
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Vastet

  • Guest
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2010, 11:59:07 AM »
But the number of people who build lots of defences far outweighs the number of people who go around looking for defences to smash. If you don't go way overboard on defences then they probably won't look at you anyway. And even if they do swing by and take you and everyone else within 80 systems; it'll not only be relatively cheap to rebuild into unprofitability, but also be that much longer until you see them again when they inevitably leave.

They are still very useful.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Daven

  • Member
  • Posts: 250
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2010, 05:20:38 PM »
I agree with "some" defenses being useful - and I build them myself

But they should be in proportion to what your planet builds during the time you are AFK and fleet saved.

My planets with mid to high 20's level mines build 25k resources per hour - If I have to be away for a full day (24 hours) that's 600 k resources.  His defense would spend 13 M resources in plasma's alone to protect 600 k resources.  Seems like overkill - and its large enough to attract "Turtle busters" because it's a challenge.

I have found 12 to 20 plasma's with appropriate lower level defenses to be sufficient - not attract attention.  But then I am rarely away from keyboard a full 24 hours so usually it is less resources to protect.

The ratio of 50 missile:50 Lasor:5pulse:5 part:4 gass to each 1 plasma as proposed in many documents - I think originally by Lagge...  seems to work well

And doing Battle Calc - the losses when attacking the 100 Plasma defense with the 500 prom fleet would only be about 3 proms + fodder - that's not much.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline DEMON KNIGHT

  • Member
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2010, 05:33:20 PM »
O.k.  I've got one moron near me that has this insatiable habit of attacking me for no profit.  I have defense this moron got himself nuked on all his planets so he has nothing.  At one point said moron was quite a bit higher in rank then myself.  He probed (lower esp then me) didn't see any defense (WHOOPS) and sacrificed a fleet to my HW defense. :lol: I politely thanked him for the free resources and figured that was the end of it.

NOPE!!!  Moron has been an incessant PAIN IN MY ASS since then.  He tries about once ever week or so to hit one of my planets to defense bash it.  He comes in destroys a  few cargo's (Loses Hades, Athen's, Posi's, Artie's, Apollo's and Atlas's) might win the attack on a lightly defended world but never makes enough to replace the ships he lost. And every time he returns he finds the defense built up even more.  I've stolen about 80% of the DF's from his fleets.  He's finally learned to send his Dio's at least at the time he sends his attack.  

I missed taking out his fleet once by 2 minutes as my fleet was incoming prior to his initiation of his attack.  So it's only a matter of time before it gets there ahead of him. Anyway after 20 some attacks now he has never once made a profitable hit on me. His defense bashing yields more defense the next time he comes around.

The player who was once ranked around 3k above me has dropped to about 2k below me. I've quit chasing his fleet around as he plays this game around 16 hours a day.  I am a random player and my logon times are not always regular.  So I will eventually have my fleet in the right place at the right time to take his down.  My fleet now far outweighs anything he could possibly send against me. So it's only a matter of time.

Defense is necessary. I use it and it's been responsible for making this moron lose more ships and keep his growth so slwed he won't be able to catch me unless I go into VM for the summer.  And even then he will probably get crashed by the other big fish around and still won't gain anything.

His most recent blunder was to fire off IPM's and chase it with a fleet.  He never noticed that I was online when he tried doing this.  rebuild ABM's and screwed him outta anything.  I politely PM'd him saying you jst wasted (near 1 million in resources) for nothing.  The most I had on my planet he could have gotten was 50k resources.  That's a huge price to pay for 50k resources. And had he actually let his fleet hit he would have lost 1/2 of it just to my defense. That's 150 ships that would have went POOF in an instant. As it was he recalled his main fleet and let a small fleet hit which went POOF in one round against the defense.

Defense is necessary if you aren't online as some are around here.  Key is to balance it and keep resources off of it.  Doesn't guarantee someone won't hit you for fun.  But it does make the number of people that can hit you drop significantly.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline RLaburda

  • Member
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2010, 06:19:17 PM »
For the most part, if you're want to protect overnight production, the Laggynate formula works best.

50 Missiles
50 Lasers
5 Pulse
5 Particle
4 Gauss
1 Plasma
20 ABMs to start

That should hold back most 8-10 productions in original if your mines aren't over 21 each

For over, probably multiply it by 2 or 3, should be enough deterrent for those seeking profit only.

This assumes you always FRS, and don't leave fleets idle when you're not at the PC.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »
First warp gates in SFC Extreme - I claim it

Offline HotShot

  • Member
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2011, 07:12:31 PM »
@Amodius: I totally agree about clearing up after yourself. Leaving the wreckage is almost malicious in my book. Like catching a fish and leaving it on the bank for no reason.  :roll:
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Lieutenant Crow

  • Member
  • Posts: 211
  • Catch me if you can.
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2011, 12:18:20 AM »
I do not use ratios for my defenses, I just build them with what I have left over from building my mines and some ships each day.

I currently mostly play X2 (Where the mining is insanely quick) and on my homeworld I produce about 2m ore/750k crystal/ 400k hydrogen while I'm FRS'ed for about 10 hours.
I did not want to be attacked, so I put out about 1 thousand missile batteries. Alas, someone attacked and broke through them. After dumping resources and rounding off the numbers, I ended up with this.

Missile: x13000
Laser: x9000
Pulse: x1000
Particle: x100
Anti-Ballistic: x20
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x110
Large: x1

I have accidentally left my fleet out a couple of times recently, I have been probed, and not attacked.

I think it is a good ratio.

Or else I'm just lucky!  :lol:
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Tal-Khoraash

  • Member
  • Posts: 414
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2011, 10:10:50 AM »
I think you are lucky, with only 20 ABMs there.

In Universe 2, the overnight production of my largest planet *by itself* back in April of this year allowed me to build and launch 125 IPBMs at one Turtled person.

With the production of O/C/H in X2, you can get a veritble missile storm of IPBMs raining down there.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »
'Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed.'
Sun Tzu - Art of War

First Rigellian of SFCO RgC
Rigellian Compact (RgC) - 7 years strong as of 12/12/2016!

Offline Lieutenant Crow

  • Member
  • Posts: 211
  • Catch me if you can.
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2011, 01:33:05 AM »
It may also help that I'm in a quiet place with few enemies, but I've still got some below 200 rank players probing me..

The 20 ABM's weren't my choice.. I would personally have gone without them. I don't even really use my homeworld.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Lieutenant Crow

  • Member
  • Posts: 211
  • Catch me if you can.
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2011, 04:21:27 AM »
It may also help that I'm in a quiet place with few enemies, but I've still got some below 200 rank players probing me..

The 20 ABM's weren't my choice.. I would personally have gone without them. I don't even really use my homeworld.

Just realized how that sounded. I DO use my homeworld, but it's not my main place for income or ship building.
Also, let's get this topic back up and running again!

Offline Thew

  • Member
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2011, 04:41:26 PM »
Then start posting some new strategies for defenses Crow :) You want it running again, then do something :P

Here is the dumbest defensive structure I have yet seen in SFCO:
Missile: x194
Laser: x34
Particle: x18
Anti-Ballistic: x30
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x7
Plasma: x4
I can say it's dumb because it's one of my planets. Not a feeder planet, but a base planet, with moon and gate.
These are my best (and these aren't even that good, at all):
Missile: x3500
Laser: x1052
Pulse: x10
Particle: x20
Anti-Ballistic: x40
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x1
Large: x1

Missile: x1500
Laser: x260
Pulse: x49
Particle: x10
Anti-Ballistic: x14
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x5
Large: x1

At least I can't be blamed for turtling.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 04:44:24 PM by Thew »

Offline GraemeCracker

  • Member
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2011, 06:48:21 PM »
Seeing as the higher ranked players tend to use Proms more and more, I am using a ratio that is heavier on the Missiles vs Lasers.  I thank Overlord Rattler (from O1) for this ratio.  It also has a lower crystal cost, since ore tends to be plentiful.

Plasma x2
Gauss x5
Particle x10
Pulse x20
Laser x50
Missile x200
Both Decoys
ABM x30

I am currently at 25 times this ratio on all my planets.  Mines 27/24/24 and I've left 4 to 5 days production without being hit.  I also have about 175 helios and 300 atlases I leave out all the time.  I don't consider this Turtling, since I know if I left my main fleet out, it would be hit.  This just protects my production to I don't have to worry about it incessantly.

I might add each planet has a gated moon above it.  I think that may be a deterrent too. ;)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:50:06 PM by GraemeCracker »

Offline Lieutenant Crow

  • Member
  • Posts: 211
  • Catch me if you can.
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2011, 10:00:26 PM »
My problem with those ratios are you are including ABM's in the 'ratio'.

I don't think anyone wants a level 75 missile silo, ahaha.

Personally, I'd say

50 missile
50 laser
20 pulse
20 particle
5 gauss
3 plasma

Is a good ratio.
Along with as many ABM's as you can hold.

The reason I believe this to be a good ratio is because this gives you an equal amount of lasers and missiles (Busy up the proms and the posies for a round) while the heavy hitters do their job and take out some ships.

If you're up at
10,000 missile
10,000 laser
4,000 pulse
4,000 particle
1,000 gauss
600 plasma

You're not going to get hit unless you leave a fleet out, which you shouldn't be doing in the first place.

You don't really need to go as heavy as I do in that ratio ; Some people would rather build 2 gauss than 1 plasma, or vice versa.

But always, I repeat ALWAYS, have defences on your planet.

Maybe not many ; some people in less aggressive areas may get away with 1k missiles and 1k lasers, and that's it.

But playing this game without defences is like going into war without bulletproof armour ; Once your lucky streak runs out, you're screwed.

Offline GraemeCracker

  • Member
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Re: Defense: A Strategical Discussion
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2011, 10:09:38 PM »
If you want to be technical I included both decoys in the "ratio" too!  :P  My intent was to indicate you needed at least 30 ABM's.  Beyond that if someone is trying to take out 30 ABM's along with 50 plasmas, etc. the cost is just prohibitive.  80 nukes will set you back 2M OCH.

I tend to avoid evening out the lasers and missiles, since realistically if someone is hitting me, they're hitting with proms and ares, and the proms make mincemeat of the lasers.  If you include posis with your proms and ares, you will take quite a bit more losses.