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Author Topic: Superfortress  (Read 2646 times)

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Offline -V-

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Superfortress
« on: February 23, 2010, 10:52:38 PM »
Alright.  We've talked enough about Zeus and which fighter is better and the relative value of Athenas over Proms and Hades...time for some discussion about the other side of the equation.

I want a Superfortress.  Granted the sexiest things we have to talk about are Plasma Cannons and ABMs (for those pesky and cowardly IPBM players), but seriously.  If I could build up the planetary defences so that made it almost impossible to attack and still make it pay off for the attacker, I'd be a happy man.

Here's the goal:

100 Plasma Cannons
200 Gausse Cannons
500 each Particle, Pulse, Laser and Missle
Both Decoys

Under this umbrella I feel safe in keeping about 1M in resources and/or a sizable fleet.  If you could attack it and make it profitable, I hope you have a buttload of Dions to clean up your fleet's mess and recycle 1/3 of the resources into a new fleet.

I ran BattleCalc against it and you'd need 30+ Zeus or 450+ Ares to even get a crack at the stockpile...not counting the ships in orbit like 100 Athenas that would make it even harder to get there.   How on earth you could make that profitable given the H2 costs is beyond me.

So.  Any Superfortesses out there?   Or can I build the first?
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Offline Asrrin29

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 10:56:16 PM »
IPBM spam.  There's already a thread somewhere about how a group attacked the #1 turtle in the game for pure shits and giggles.  he went from #1 defense in the game to < 200,000.  And you can crack 80 ABPMs for under 5 million resources.
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Offline -V-

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 11:11:53 PM »
my point exactly...i guess if you want to spend enough you can take anyone down...but is that what it's about?

i mean i see #10K-30K ranked players all over the place and I'm thinking, wow...I could wreck their world over and over again.  but to what end?  how is profitable? how does it put me in a better position to spend the 1M in hydro, the 2M in IPBMs just so i can take out someone's defences that'll be rebuilt anyways?  i guess if that's your goal in life, then so be it.  you'll need 2X the missile slots than i have ABMs (at what cost?)...pay for your IPBMs, send your massive fleet that could be attacking more viable targets, send your dions at an enormous hydro cost and then spend the next 5 days rebuilding your fleet.   ok.  i ask again.  why would you want to?

so many strategy tips say "make it so that it's unprofitable to attack you".  exactly my point.  if i've got 1M in resources stockpiled and you spend 5+M to get it half of it...who won?
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Offline Dampaq.Pale.Horseman

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 11:13:23 PM »
Depending on the fleet sitting on it (to make it worth the effort  ;) ), we could crack that turtle.
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Offline Dootball

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 11:38:18 PM »
100 Plasma Cannons
200 Gausse Cannons
500 each Particle, Pulse, Laser and Missle
Both Decoys

???

Have you considered how much you are paying to protect your resourses?  100 plasmas costs 5M ore 5Mcyrstal and 3M hydrogen to start with. already thats 13 times the 1M you are hoping to protect.
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Offline -V-

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 11:56:54 PM »
but that investment lasts.  it's there.  it doesn't go anywhere.  and it rebuilds.  ships don't.

i'm not talking about protecting 100 proms, 500 hades and 1000 athenas (god knows how big your fleet would need to be to make that attack work for you)...but here's my point.  if it's a vengeance thing...so be it.  no amount of reason is going to stand against that motivation.

but if you are really trying to make an attack work for you, you've got to invest a HUGE fleet's time, spend the hydro to get it there, have a HUGE fleet of Dions about 5 seconds behind it, spend the hydro to get them there and then spend the next X number of hours, days, weeks rebuilding what you lost and hoping no one takes your "bounty" in the meantime.  how do you account for all that cost?  i dunno.  if i was ever raiding a system and found a Superfortress, i'd just say "wow, not in this lifetime".  there's too many other, easier targets out there.
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Offline Perseus

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 12:00:27 AM »
A defense of that size would attract people who want to destroy it just to say they did.

You should always have more missiles and lasers than particles and pulse too.
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Offline SGS 6

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 12:00:52 AM »
Any static defense can either be outmaneuvered or destroyed. Look at (in real life) the Maginot Line, the Atlantic Wall, Fort Ticonderoga, etc.

Consider the fact that defending those resources will be much cheaper if you do it by repeat fleetsaving with a massive fleet of Hercules. You can fleetsave 1 million resources with less than half a million worth of ore and crystal, and hydrogen can be supplied by daily production. And the construction of that fleet of Hercs does NOT have to be done at the "vault" planet.

Consider also the fact that some people would destroy your defenses just so say they did it.

Consider also that no matter how many ABMs you put up, someone with two or three times that many IPBMs (which would be easy if they have allies or multiple planets in range) could destroy your entire defense without risking their ships.

Consider also that after all that expense, you're only protecting ONE planet. What about your others?

It's true that MOST players would not want to invest the effort and even less, want to do it at a net loss of resources. But you are not just defending against those, you're defending against the crazies too.

Personally - I only have one planet that has any defenses other than the two decoys. I basically rely on the decoys to wave off the folks who are barely into my newbie range who might raid me just for what my mines produce during one fleetsave. (Most of those folks don't have the force to overpower both decoys, or even just one.) I figure anyone with the force to overpower both decoys isn't going to bother raiding me for that little. And mainly that one planet that does have the defenses is because I built them before I realized what a waste they are.
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Offline lawrence haynes

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 12:19:54 AM »
Wasn't it Patton that said "Man made fortifications are a testament to the stupidity of man!" ;)
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Offline vanvely

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 12:31:04 AM »
Quote from: "-V-"
my point exactly...i guess if you want to spend enough you can take anyone down...but is that what it's about?

i mean i see #10K-30K ranked players all over the place and I'm thinking, wow...I could wreck their world over and over again.  but to what end?  how is profitable? how does it put me in a better position to spend the 1M in hydro, the 2M in IPBMs just so i can take out someone's defences that'll be rebuilt anyways?  i guess if that's your goal in life, then so be it.  you'll need 2X the missile slots than i have ABMs (at what cost?)...pay for your IPBMs, send your massive fleet that could be attacking more viable targets, send your dions at an enormous hydro cost and then spend the next 5 days rebuilding your fleet.   ok.  i ask again.  why would you want to?

so many strategy tips say "make it so that it's unprofitable to attack you".  exactly my point.  if i've got 1M in resources stockpiled and you spend 5+M to get it half of it...who won?
You are missing a key point though: those IBMs don't have to come from a single player. Imagine you are at the top of the leader boards for defenses. You are the #1 turtle, and you are famous. Now, in comes 100 players, all willing to smash you for nothing but pure fun. It costs them, you say? Yes, but very little. Each person donates 1 IBM, and suddenly you have 100 nukes all coming at you.

In short, people can gang up on you, but the reverse isn't true--you can't have your friends' ABMs "group defend" your defenses. The system is biased in one direction. Their losses might be SHARED among dozens of players, but your losses are your ALONE.
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Offline -V-

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 12:41:41 AM »
if i was the #1 in defense i wouldn't have only 100 ABMs...you think any alliance can coordinate a hundred players at once?  i've never seen it.  there aren't 100 players in ONE galaxy and IPBMs don't reach beyond that limit.  i guess i can't make a sufficient enough argument against "crazy".  you're right.  if i have 120 or 160 ABMs and someone wants to invest twice that in IPBMs and hope i won't rebuild at half the time and half the resources they're expending, then they'll make a dent.  
mind you.  
at that point they haven't yet MADE any profit.  they just spent alot of resources.   with only 1M in hiding and a fleet out front, ready to fleet save and take all the stockpile with it, they still haven't GAINED anything.  they just took out defences that rebuild themselves.  if anyone can come up w/ a requisite fleet size/IPBM mix that'll take all that out, take home HALF of the 1M stockpile, clean up enough of their ship's debris bfore i get it to make it all pay...  i say go for it. don't forget to factor in the hydro cost(s) as well.  i'd love to see the fleet that thinks it can make it profitable.  i'd ask them...how much have you lost in the last 4 hours of sortie time trying to wipe out my fleet that just left on a harvest mission with all my resources?
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Offline Perseus

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 12:47:27 AM »
Quote from: "-V-"
i guess i can't make a sufficient enough argument against "crazy".  you're right.  if i have 120 ABMs and someone wants to invest twice that in IPBMs and hope i won't rebuild at half the time and half the resources they're expending, then they'll make a dent.  
mind you.  
at that point they haven't yet MADE any profit.  they just spent alot of resources.   with only 1M in hiding and a fleet out front, ready to fleet save and take all the stockpile with it, they still haven't GAINED anything.  they just took out defences that rebuild themselves.  if anyone can come up w/ a requisite fleet size/IPBM mix that'll take all that out, take home HALF of the 1M stockpile, clean up enough of their ship's debris bfore i get it to make it all pay...  i say go for it. don't forget to factor in the hydro cost(s) as well.  i'd love to see the fleet that thinks it can make it profitable.  i'd ask them...how much have you lost in the last 4 hours of sortie time trying to wipe out my fleet that just left on a harvest mission with all my resources?

120 ABM's would require a level 12 silo which costs over 40 million ore and 40 million crystal, defenses don't rebuild if they're IPBM'ed, and people who nuke for fun don't care about profit or loss.
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Offline vanvely

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 12:53:44 AM »
Having said that, I don't think the idea of a "super turtle" is obsolete. I just think planetary defenses are the wrong way to go about it, simply because people can "group nuke" you while you can't "group ABM" back. What you need are not defenses, but very high-level mines. Here's a similar scenario, 100 people vs a turtle, but a different type of turtle:

You have something like 30/27/25 mines on each planet, generating 58 millions resources a week, or about 80 million equivalent of ore a week, which gives well over 1000 athenas a week, or who knows how many defenses. Now you can AFFORD to lose your entire fleet/defenses, and rebound in a few days. They can pound you with 1000 Zeus if they want, but you'll quickly bounce back. You will be a cancer that grows incessantly. You can beat it down, but it'll always come back. It might be fun for them to do a one-time attack just to destroy everything you have, it it won't be fun if they have to keep attacking you forever just to keep your forces down.

30/27/25 mines are insanely high though, but it's possible. Just a thought...
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Offline -V-

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 12:53:54 AM »
you're right.  crazy is crazy. guess i'll shoot for #15 in defence so i'm not the "glamour target".  i know def's don't regen after ipbm strikes.  i meant i can rebuild abms faster than anyone can build ipbms at a lower cost.

like i said, there's no stopping stupid.  i'm defending the "rational" players who are actually after the 1M resources i have stockpiled.  forget the defences.  forget the fleet that will take the resources away...i'm talking about the prize they're supposedly after.
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Offline vanvely

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2010, 12:54:52 AM »
Quote from: "-V-"
if i was the #1 in defense i wouldn't have only 100 ABMs...you think any alliance can coordinate a hundred players at once?  i've never seen it.  there aren't 100 players in ONE galaxy and IPBMs don't reach beyond that limit.  i guess i can't make a sufficient enough argument against "crazy".  you're right.  if i have 120 or 160 ABMs and someone wants to invest twice that in IPBMs and hope i won't rebuild at half the time and half the resources they're expending, then they'll make a dent.  
mind you.  
at that point they haven't yet MADE any profit.  they just spent alot of resources.   with only 1M in hiding and a fleet out front, ready to fleet save and take all the stockpile with it, they still haven't GAINED anything.  they just took out defences that rebuild themselves.  if anyone can come up w/ a requisite fleet size/IPBM mix that'll take all that out, take home HALF of the 1M stockpile, clean up enough of their ship's debris bfore i get it to make it all pay...  i say go for it. don't forget to factor in the hydro cost(s) as well.  i'd love to see the fleet that thinks it can make it profitable.  i'd ask them...how much have you lost in the last 4 hours of sortie time trying to wipe out my fleet that just left on a harvest mission with all my resources?
In my example, I said that each person only invests ONE nuke. What if it's 10? Still not a big cost, but now you have 1000 nukes coming at you. Just an example.
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