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Author Topic: Superfortress  (Read 2645 times)

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Offline SGS 6

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2010, 06:07:11 AM »
Quote from: "shorewood"
The point of defenses is to DISCOURAGE attacks, not to stop them all together.  A potential attacker deciding that he'd rather attack a less well defended player than punch through your defenses (lets assume he can) is a battle won for the defender.  

....

That is how my defenses are built.  My home world is very well defended.  But my colonies are not, because i use my home world as a resource hub.  What defenses i have there is to discourage casual raids. .....

My philosophy too. My non-hub planets have, AT MOST, both decoys. I figure anyone who is able and willing to committ enough force to overpower those in order to raid my overnight/daytime production (I play and then fleetsave twice a day), either has a vendetta against me or my alliance, or... hey, if they're willing to come after me for that little with that much they're welcome to it.

But 90% (or more) won't go after 6 hours' production with that kind of forces because, quite simply, there are easier targets. I've had people my alliance is actively at war with choose not to bother.

Also, as the poster before me mentioned. Defenses are static investments; i.e. they do not have the capability to bring in future income. Ships do.

There are two main problems with the concept of turtling, other than the cost/benefit economics of it. One... some crazy players will just knock it down because they CAN, regardless of the cost or intelligence of doing it. And two, having that kind of wall will eventually make you think your fleet and resources are safe behind it, which just makes it an even juicier target.
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Offline vanvely

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2010, 07:21:15 AM »
And -V-, here's an analogy: think of these crazy attackers as suicide bombers or kamikaze pilots. They are willing to cause harm to others, even at a cost to themselves. Should you be afraid of them? If a suicide bomber walks up to you, are you going to say: "Haha, go ahead and blow us all up, because you'll die as well." What's most important to you is not whether he suffers a cost, but whether you do.

Similarly, if you build up a superfortress, that will attract these "suicide-bombers." Sure, you might say "Hey, it's unprofitable for them to attack. They lose resources too." But guess what, they don't care. The fact that they lost some resources doesn't help cut your losses. Their loss doesn't equal your gain.

When a suicide bomber blows up, the victims' families don't go around cheering. The fact that suicide bombers are willing to go to such lengths just to cause damage actually makes them more dangerous, meaning you really don't want to attract them by building a superfortress. So if your intent is to do what's best for yourself (instead of being a martyr and absorbing attacks from suicide bombers), a superfortress isn't the way to go, as many many people have pointed out here.
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Offline quantumcat

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2010, 11:58:29 AM »
me I am one of those people who are nuke happy,on group attacks when I don't have any ships available to send  if I can I will send nukes to make it easier for the other members to get at the resources,I don't aquire anything for it but when I need help to take someone down they are ready to help me because I did.So in retrospect it is profitable to spend a fortune on nuking someone even if at that time you don't get anything for it.that and I just like blowing stuff up you ought to see me on the 4th of july ooohhh pretty.
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Offline Ness

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2010, 03:12:40 PM »
Quote from: "vanvely"
And -V-, here's an analogy: think of these crazy attackers as suicide bombers or kamikaze pilots. They are willing to cause harm to others, even at a cost to themselves. Should you be afraid of them? If a suicide bomber walks up to you, are you going to say: "Haha, go ahead and blow us all up, because you'll die as well." What's most important to you is not whether he suffers a cost, but whether you do.

Similarly, if you build up a superfortress, that will attract these "suicide-bombers." Sure, you might say "Hey, it's unprofitable for them to attack. They lose resources too." But guess what, they don't care. The fact that they lost some resources doesn't help cut your losses. Their loss doesn't equal your gain.

When a suicide bomber blows up, the victims' families don't go around cheering. The fact that suicide bombers are willing to go to such lengths just to cause damage actually makes them more dangerous, meaning you really don't want to attract them by building a superfortress. So if your intent is to do what's best for yourself (instead of being a martyr and absorbing attacks from suicide bombers), a superfortress isn't the way to go, as many many people have pointed out here.


vanvely, you've posted a lot (and quite decently) about how the goal of many people is to 'blow shit up', and in doing so, have fun.  However, I don't think you're considering the gamer type of the OP.  (OK, he sounds kind of retarded, talking about wanting to use his def to avoid having to F/R save, so maybe he's just ignorant... regardless consider the following.)

In 1996, Richard Bartle wrote a paper on player personality types in massively-multiplayer online games.  Later, Erwin Andreasen and Brandon Downey created a test based on that paper, referred to as the Bartle Test. ( Taken from Wikipedia Article on Bartle Test (link) )

I've broken down the four types of player below - note that you aren't all one type, but have a rating for each type of personality.  You can take the test at: link

Quote
Achievers
---------
Also known as "Diamonds," these are players who prefer to gain "points," levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game. They will go to great lengths to achieve rewards that confer them little or no gameplay benefit simply for the prestige of having it.

SFC Equivalent: You want to be the first one in SFC:E to own a Zeus, or the first to crash a Zeus using only Gaias, etc.

Quote
Explorers
---------
Explorers, dubbed "Spades" for their tendency to dig around, are players who prefer discovering areas, creating maps and learning about hidden places. They often feel restricted when a game expects them to move on within a certain time, as that does not allow them to look around at their own pace. They find great joy in discovering an unknown glitch or a hidden easter egg.

SFC Equivalent: They enjoy coming up with history and role play for SFC, adding depth to it.  Also crafting guides and strategies on the boards, etc.

Quote
Socializers
----------
There are a multitude of gamers who choose to play games for the social aspect, rather than the actual game itself. These players are known as Socializers or "Hearts." They gain the most enjoyment from a game by interacting with other players, and on some occasions, computer-controlled characters with personality. The game is merely a tool they use to meet others in-game or outside of it.

SFC Equivalent:  The people in a clan who aren't the best players, but are always free to chat or post in the OT threads.  Popular with everyone and chatty.  People who make a goal to Buddy Request everyone in their system (and not to ambush them when they're offline) because they want to know their neighbors, etc.

Quote
Killers
----------
"Clubs" is a very accurate moniker for what the Killer likes to do. They thrive on competition with other players, and prefer fighting them to scripted computer-controlled opponents.

Probably the majority of players in Empire.  But seriously, most players in the game (that aren't in (d) mode) are going to fall into this category or Achievers.  They thrive on smashing the fleets of others and can't understand why someone would be incredulous when their fleet is smashed.


Now, what you need to realize is that while the majority of the players are Killers (or Clubs) in this game, you have the occasional Achievers (or Diamonds) in this game whose goal is to do something no one else has done.  The group that originally took down the #1 turtle was part of this, as are people who want to be the first to own 10 Zeus, create a super fortress, etc (if they want to do it for the sole purpose of being the first).  They aren't concerned with the cost or effectiveness of what they're doing, they just want to do it.  For instance, while I score extremely high in the Killer category, I'm a pretty high Achiever also... the thread on the forums about killing Gaias makes me want to construct an all-Gaia strike force to take out lone Atlases, and then bost the battle report in that thread with the heading 'Gaia's Strike Back'.  Is it financially wise?  No.  Would it be easy to ninja and make me a big target?  Yes.  Does that mean I'm discouraged from doing it?  No.

So while you see the game as only a way to have fun by killing things (at least, this is what your posts have indicated) consider the other player personality types, and why they play the game.  I spent this morning in the shower thinking about how to craft a better turtle then the #1 that was popped - I'll probably post a thread on it later.
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Offline Dzyu

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2010, 04:40:36 PM »
-V-, don't listen to these fools. Just build the damn fortress... ;)

Oh and if any of you guys nuke him a month or two from now, especially the turtle-killing service, PLEASE post screenshots. :P
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Offline vanvely

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2010, 05:12:10 PM »
Quote from: "Ness"
vanvely, you've posted a lot (and quite decently) about how the goal of many people is to 'blow shit up', and in doing so, have fun.  However, I don't think you're considering the gamer type of the OP.  (OK, he sounds kind of retarded, talking about wanting to use his def to avoid having to F/R save, so maybe he's just ignorant... regardless consider the following.)

In 1996, Richard Bartle wrote a paper on player personality types in massively-multiplayer online games.  Later, Erwin Andreasen and Brandon Downey created a test based on that paper, referred to as the Bartle Test. ( Taken from Wikipedia Article on Bartle Test (link) )

I've broken down the four types of player below - note that you aren't all one type, but have a rating for each type of personality.  You can take the test at: link

Quote
Achievers
Explorers
Socializers
Killers

So while you see the game as only a way to have fun by killing things (at least, this is what your posts have indicated) consider the other player personality types, and why they play the game.  I spent this morning in the shower thinking about how to craft a better turtle then the #1 that was popped - I'll probably post a thread on it later.
My point wasn't that everyone should be "Killers" -- they can play however they want. My point was that many people are "Killers," which makes turtling a poor long-term approach. The OP was insisting that it wasn't profitable nor fun to be one of those suicidal "Killers," but my point is, profitable or not, fun or not, people do it, and that's all that matters from the defender's point of view.

However, if your point is that maybe the OP's goal in SFC is not to progress faster, but to achieve the largest turtle and wait for it to get blown up, then yes, turtling would be the way to go. But from the OP's post, it sounds like -V- wants to actually use the turtle to defend and actually progress in the game, and not just "Hey, I want to build a superfortress and see how big it can get before someone blows it up, and get bragging rights for owning the biggest turtle that got destroyed."
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Offline Marlboro Mann

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2010, 10:25:50 PM »
Quote from: "Perseus"
Fact: Telling me that I play stupid and to go get a real life is enough of a reason for me to burn 2.5 million hydro in missiles to destroy your defenses just to make you mad. Burning 2.5 million hydro in a free online game would be worth that.

This reply, and the other posts by Perseus, explains why he is now retired.  Perhaps he finally realized he had been playing stupid and decided to get a life?  Or, more likely, started playing another free game with peeps who also play stupid.

MM
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Offline DEMON KNIGHT

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2010, 04:11:45 AM »
Quote
30/27/25 mines are insanely high though, but it's possible. Just a thought...

Consider this.  My O-game account.  9 colonies  HW removed from this because of it's size=8 colonies  All 270+ fields.  All colonies and HW have moons (9 moons all gaited)
 
Metal mine 35 (ore)
Crystal mine 30
Deuterium mine 29or 30 (hydro mine)

Do the math.  Ranked 23 overall.  Much higher fleet rank and research rank. 10k Atlas and 10k Herc's (needed just to hold the resources.)

W,S,A=15,15,18 will be at 17,17,18 by end of summer.

Now none of these 8 worlds are excessively "TURTLED"  couple thousand RL's and an assortment of other stuff.  But my colonies are only ever probed about once a month.  Why I move resources a minimum of 4 times a week to meet up with the fleets.

What this post has is two different sides of the same argument.  The OP is asking why would people want to waste immense amounts of time and energy on him when they won't get anything. The flip side of the argument is those that say he will make a mistake and they will profit from it.  Either could be true.  

But the answer is no matter how safe you think you are if someone simply wants to hurt you they can. They need not use profit as a reason to do so. They can do it simply because they want to.
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Offline Lord Emporer

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2010, 05:55:02 AM »
Quote from: "-V-"
A

Here's the goal:

100 Plasma Cannons
200 Gausse Cannons
500 each Particle, Pulse, Laser and Missle
Both Decoys

Under this umbrella I feel safe in keeping about 1M in resources and/or a sizable fleet.  If you could attack it and make it profitable, I hope you have a buttload of Dions to clean up your fleet's mess and recycle 1/3 of the resources into a new fleet.

gassp!!!! you are not fallowing laggy protocol defenses!

i am here
urrent defenses   
Missile: x2600
Laser: x1152
Pulse: x250
Particle: x250
Anti-Ballistic: x60
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x100
Large: x1
Plasma: x50

i know iknow i'm short amb's and lasers

i hide no fleet behind that nor more than 600K res
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Offline Geryefof

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2010, 07:29:28 AM »
These are mine currently:

Missile: x3155
Laser: x3133
Pulse: x241
Particle: x277
Anti-Ballistic: x60
Decoy: x1
Gauss: x95
Large: x1
Plasma: x67

Have pretty much the same on my 4 main planets, and yea I could have built a fleet with those resources, but look at it from my point of view:

If all you do is build fleet, and no defense, you give yourself a big target. People will be gunning for your fleet. Theres always a bigger fleet than you. With a big defense like this, my fleet is a lot harder to hit. People probe, probe, probe, and pass me by all the time. Even when I leave a few million resources on the planet.

So, as a casual player, I can feel safe. I don't have to be at the computer the minute my fleet returns to send it off to another harvest mission like many zombies do in this game.


So for a superfortress? It works.   I say that with reserve though, I know my limits; don't piss an alliance off, they can crush you. no amount of ABMs is hard to get through with a determined alliance, and also the top fleets can crack it in 6 rounds.
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Offline the enforcer

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2010, 09:09:58 AM »
you guys aren't even talking about a super fortress.

here is one i found the other day.

RESOURCES:
* ore: 2,200,000
* crystal: 1,620,728
* hydrogen: 1,391,795

SHIPS:
* Hermes Class Probe: 1,847
* Helios Class Solar Satellite: 82
* Artemis Class Fighter: 2,751
* Atlas Class Cargo: 102
* Apollo Class Fighter: 26
* Hercules Class Cargo: 63
* Dionysus Class Recycler: 67
* Poseidon Class Cruiser: 713
* Athena Class Battleship: 311
* Ares Class Bomber: 11
* Hades Class Battleship: 177
* Prometheus Class Destroyer: 97

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 14,535
* Laser Cannon: 30,993
* Pulse Cannon: 16
* Particle Cannon: 842
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 50
* Decoy: 1
* Interplanetary Ballistic Missile: 0
* Gauss Cannon: 100
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 123

BUILDINGS:
* Shipyard: 11
* Capitol: 10
* Research Lab: 10
* Missile Silo: 5
* Factory: 5
* Ore Warehouse: 8
* Crystal Warehouse: 9
* Hydrogen Storage: 7
* Foundry: 2

MINES:
* Ore Mine: 24
* Crystal Mine: 19
* Hydrogen Synthesizer: 18

TECHS:
* Laser Tech: 13
* Armor Tech: 12
* Weapons Tech: 12
* Shield Tech: 11
* Particle Tech: 9
* Jet Drive: 9
* A.I. Tech: 12
* Energy Tech: 11
* Espionage Tech: 10
* Pulse Drive: 9
* Plasma Tech: 8
* FTL Tech: 8
* Expedition Tech: 5
* Warp Drive: 8
* Advanced Research Communication Network: 2

The chance of your probes being intercepted is 0%
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Offline Andrade III

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2010, 12:29:05 PM »
Quote from: "the enforcer"
you guys aren't even talking about a super fortress.

Notice the time between these posts.  Epic something or other.

Seen a couple people with over 1k plasmas now.
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Offline SGS 6

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2010, 04:42:32 AM »
Here's one I found. Apparently thinks it's big enough to hide his fleet behind it.

RESOURCES:
* ore: 662,759
* crystal: 411,725
* hydrogen: 1,321,344

XXXX XXXXXXX'S SHIPS:
* Hermes Class Probe: 5
* Artemis Class Fighter: 10
* Atlas Class Cargo: 5
* Apollo Class Fighter: 2
* Charon Class Transport: 1
* Dionysus Class Recycler: 18
* Poseidon Class Cruiser: 15
* Athena Class Battleship: 5
* Ares Class Bomber: 2
* Hades Class Battleship: 1
* Prometheus Class Destroyer: 18

DEFENSES:
* Missile Battery: 400
* Laser Cannon: 400
* Pulse Cannon: 200
* Particle Cannon: 100
* Anti-Ballistic Missile: 40
* Decoy: 1
* Gauss Cannon: 100
* Large Decoy: 1
* Plasma Cannon: 175

BUILDINGS:
* Shipyard: 9
* Capitol: 4
* Research Lab: 7
* Missile Silo: 4
* Factory: 2
* Ore Warehouse: 9
* Crystal Warehouse: 8
* Hydrogen Storage: 8
* Foundry: 0

MINES:
* Ore Mine: 21
* Crystal Mine: 22
* Hydrogen Synthesizer: 20

TECHS:
* Laser Tech: 12
* Armor Tech: 11
* Weapons Tech: 10
* Shield Tech: 9
* Particle Tech: 6
* Jet Drive: 7
* A.I. Tech: 10
* Energy Tech: 8
* Espionage Tech: 9
* Pulse Drive: 6
* Plasma Tech: 7
* FTL Tech: 7
* Expedition Tech: 4
* Warp Drive: 6
* Advanced Research Communication Network: 0
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Offline ramrod

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2010, 05:02:30 AM »
Quote from: "SGS 6"
Here's one I found. Apparently thinks it's big enough to hide his fleet behind it.

XXXX XXXXXXX'S SHIPS:
* Hermes Class Probe: 5
* Artemis Class Fighter: 10
* Atlas Class Cargo: 5
* Apollo Class Fighter: 2
* Charon Class Transport: 1
* Dionysus Class Recycler: 18
* Poseidon Class Cruiser: 15
* Athena Class Battleship: 5
* Ares Class Bomber: 2
* Hades Class Battleship: 1
* Prometheus Class Destroyer: 18

With a tiny fleet like that, yeah, it probably is.  Drop off a couple dozen ships and I probably wouldn't bother with it with no defenses.  Not worth wasting the fleet spot or the hydro.
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Offline Avi Kerensky

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Re: Superfortress
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2010, 09:42:22 AM »
I don't have anywhere near that many plasmas or gauss, but what defenses I DO have, when combined with my sizeable fleet, I am rarely attacked. The last 3 attacks that were sent at me, I got online in time to stop, and they were each over 20,000 ships, most of which were NOT arts or apollos, and the last one was more than 30,000 ships.
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