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Author Topic: Cleaning up the forums.  (Read 1992 times)

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Offline Whisky12345

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2010, 05:59:35 PM »
Quote
I think you need to validate your arguement by addressing my post.

Quote from: "2$Bill"
I don't want to sound like an ass but how are we going to find out if we are doing something wrong if we are interpreting the rule one way and are not allowed to discuss past BFG rulings on similar interpretations which may or may not have led to suspension.  Would it not be easier for you just to isolate this into it's own board, or sub forum?  As heated as the whole thing got this week, I have learned from it and have changed my play style to accomidate.  It also allows for certain checks and Balences on the programers as without this ability, many will cry foul as there will be no precident on rulings available to the players.

To not address an issue is to promote ignorance over education.  Ignorance serves only one purpose and that is to oppress those who sucumb to it.  To educate oneself is to free himself from the shackles of those who would prey on the weak and the poor, and overcome the adversities that are presented by those that would pervert the system to support selfish endevors.


Sorry, you're right, I should have addressed that...

Firstly, I made one slight mistake in my previous post... I'm not going to edit it out, I'll deal with it here...

The rule the BBC employ is that the staff refuse to discuss individual moderation decisions on-site.

This means that if things start getting heated and people start taking sides in an argument when they're not aware of all the background, the conversation gets shut down... This stops the flamewars developing.

However, what the BBC do try and tell all their staff to do is to be open about general policy decisions and be flexible... If a general point needs clarifying they can do that on site...

So, from a board administrator's point of view, general discussions on policy and rules should be encouraged, whilst specifics on a particular case should be avoided like the plague

To produce ironclad rules for the running of a messageboard (or even the running of a game) is virtually impossible... Some people are extremely ingenious... Either you need a set of rules longer than the Encyclopaedia Britannica or you need staff and users who are willing to intelligently interpret a few general rules on a case by case basis.

For instance, the Beebs rules on spamming go like this...
Quote
No spamming or flooding. Spamming is the posting of the same (or very similar) messages to lots of forums. Flooding is when the same (or very similar) message is posted over and over again to the same conversation. It's especially antisocial if it's off-topic for those forums. So please don't deliberately send the same message, or very similar messages, to loads of different Conversation Forums, or post the same message to one Conversation multiple times. We'll simply remove your Postings, and possibly close your account.
No mention of a specific number of postings, no mention of a specific time frame, no mention of a specific punishment...
If you do lay down the law specifically then someone will find a way around it... If you're running a board you've just got to use your head...

Finally, lets face it, it's in BFGs interest to keep the majority of its players happy... They're not trying to drive their users away. And while we as users might not always agree with every decision they make, and may ask for clarification if we're worried about certain rules, we've got to accept that:
a) The staff are always going to be making judgement calls we might not personally agree with
b) All moderation decisions are incorrect to 50% of the people involved
c) No two cases are identical and not all situations can be covered by ironclad rules
 
So basically, saying, "BFG - You got it wrong, you should have done XXX instead of YYY", gets your post deleted and the conversation closed.

However, saying, "BFG - could you clarify the rules on XXX, I'm not sure what it actually means", should get an intelligent response from the Admins... However, you might not always be happy with the response, because it'll always be general and accompanied by the disclaimer, "But we have to deal with problems like this on a case-by-case basis"

And that's quite enough waffle from me  ;)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline Zafoquat

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2010, 06:04:54 PM »
Quote from: "Whisky12345"


To produce ironclad rules for the running of a messageboard (or even the running of a game) is virtually impossible... Some people are extremely ingenious... Either you need a set of rules longer than the Encyclopaedia Britannica or you need staff and users who are willing to intelligently interpret a few general rules on a case by case basis.


If you do lay down the law specifically then someone will find a way around it... If you're running a board you've just got to use your head...



However, saying, "BFG - could you clarify the rules on XXX, I'm not sure what it actually means", should get an intelligent response from the Admins... However, you might not always be happy with the response, because it'll always be general and accompanied by the disclaimer, "But we have to deal with problems like this on a case-by-case basis"


+10

the worst thing that could happen in the solution you outlined about open-ended rulings like that are contradictions, biased treatment formed from these contradictions, and then general apathy in the appeal process.

I think things need to get locked down hard

and then the public trust those locking it down because of honest, fair, consistent rulings.


-edit

joe should expect to get the same response from BFG that bob did

and bob should expect the same response if asked in different ways

if they dont expect these things this system breaks down

and their expectations are driven by BFG's actions
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »
teaching small children about god is abusive

you condition your child to a fairy tale with no supporting evidence

you close their mind to free and balanced learning

grow up and act like a real parent


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So pretty much you hit all minorities with that one, and yes I know you meant it, from previous posts.

Offline Whisky12345

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2010, 06:22:56 PM »
Quote from: "Zafoquat"

joe should expect to get the same response from BFG that bob did

and bob should expect the same response if asked in different ways

if they dont expect these things this system breaks down

and their expectations are driven by BFG's actions

You're making some big assumptions there...

Is Joe's situation identical to Bobs?
The only person who can know that for sure is BFG

It's very naive to assume that if Bob has done something seriously wrong then he's going to admit to it in public, so what Joe sees may not be the full story.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »

Offline 2$Bill

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2010, 06:36:06 PM »
it seems to be a good idea as there are 1033 views of the 120 posts already in that forum.  I think it's best to let it go.
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Offline Ptonjalken

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2010, 06:36:49 PM »
I am going to move this to the new forum, as it is becoming more of a discussion for there :)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »
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Offline Zafoquat

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2010, 06:45:21 PM »
Quote from: "Whisky12345"
Quote from: "Zafoquat"

joe should expect to get the same response from BFG that bob did

and bob should expect the same response if asked in different ways

if they dont expect these things this system breaks down

and their expectations are driven by BFG's actions

You're making some big assumptions there...

Is Joe's situation identical to Bobs?
The only person who can know that for sure is BFG

It's very naive to assume that if Bob has done something seriously wrong then he's going to admit to it in public, so what Joe sees may not be the full story.

in discussion of general topics absolutely i should assume this.

yes it would be naive to assume it about the specifics of a complicated scenario.

and this is conveniently fixed by the mods having absolute authority on issues. so they cant be manipulatively tied in a knot with semantic arguments and out of context quotes of theirs or any of the other clever applications of social engineering

and again this needs.. NEEDS... to be coupled with community trust... and in the end the good will of honest people in control at the top.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »
teaching small children about god is abusive

you condition your child to a fairy tale with no supporting evidence

you close their mind to free and balanced learning

grow up and act like a real parent


Quote from: \"Pton\"
So pretty much you hit all minorities with that one, and yes I know you meant it, from previous posts.

Offline bryn987

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2010, 07:07:29 PM »
Anyway we can hide this forum so I can't see it at all?
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Offline Whisky12345

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Re: Cleaning up the forums.
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2010, 07:14:57 PM »
Quote from: "Zafoquat"

and this is conveniently fixed by the mods having absolute authority on issues. so they cant be manipulatively tied in a knot with semantic arguments and out of context quotes of theirs or any of the other clever applications of social engineering

and again this needs.. NEEDS... to be coupled with community trust... and in the end the good will of honest people in control at the top.


Agree totally... In my experience one of the best ways of developing a sense of trust between the users of a messageboard/game  and the people running it is to have the Admins having as public a profile as possible, posting to the messageboard as much as they can and involved in the general day to day life of the community itself... However, it also needs the goodwill of the users as well... Without which any administrator is in a no-win situation.

While there are users who insist on assuming the Admins are out to get them and that there is a 'them and us' culture, then the admins can't do a thing about it... And unfortunately, there are very few corners of the internet where this breed of paranoid user doesn't exist at all,  which makes it very difficult to be a messageboard/gaming admin anywhere.

I remember a quote from one of the best internet community managers I ever met... When questioned about his management style. He said, "This isn't a democracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship"... And that, for better or worse, is about the only way you can actually run an on-line community.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »