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Poll

What do you think of the Oracle Change?

Great, no complaints.
66 (24.3%)
Better, but needs improvement
26 (9.6%)
Bad, should be reverted
73 (26.8%)
Bad, should be reverted except colonization missions
77 (28.3%)
Remove the Oracle entirely
30 (11%)

Total Members Voted: 266

Voting closed: June 04, 2010, 06:08:21 PM

Author Topic: Oracle Update  (Read 19318 times)

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Offline Badrash

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #345 on: June 06, 2010, 05:23:26 PM »
Quote from: "Badrash"

I think you are mistaken, LAggy.  I do not believe you can "deploy" the Heph if you have 9 planets BECAUSE the Heph shows up in one of your planet slots.  You could build a Heph and leave it on the planet - or even send it on a deploy to another of your planets, or even attack with it!  Up until the point you deploy it.  And then it acts much like a planet on the view screen.  At least this is what I have been told.

And for the sake of not getting called out, you could technically MAC around with 8 permanent planets.  Its just your MAC fleets would have to return to another planet first before the next destination.  Depending on your planet placements, this is a very feasible possibility.

Why oh why would I question the great Laggynate!  He is 100% correct.  You CAN have 9 planets, and a Heph!
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Offline Big S

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #346 on: June 06, 2010, 06:13:28 PM »
Quote from: "Badrash"
I will concede that Oracle Nerf does allow small-moderate sized fleeters the time to delay purchasing the Heph, therefore, its effectiveness was reduced, therefore it was Nerf'd as a consequence of the change.

I think a few of us got caught up in the argument about which is the "better" method to use.

The Heph is superior due to total cost of ownership thru fuel savings and the additional income from a mining planet.  The MAC is superior in initial cost and speed of deployment.  With the changes, you can not tell where either is being deployed to (though due to fuel efficiencies, the Heph can be deployed on much longer deploys for the same cost.)  The argument that you can lose your entire fleet if you lose your Heph is identical on if you get boomerang'd (or locked) doing an attack from a MAC (though its not likely you would lose your support ships in an attack on a MAC.)  You just have to understand those risks when using fleets for each and create new additional tactics to overcome.

Can we agree on the above?

Yes, absolutely. Reasonable people can certainly agree with facts that are indisputable.

There is one thing though, that isn't the same between a boomerang and the Heph vulnerability. If I get boomeranged, I only loose my fleet. The planet cost is negligible. If I loose my Heph, I loose my fleet and my 50 million investment. Correct?? Also in the interest of apples to apples, Heph you don't really attack outside system, because of the vulnerability. If I MAC but only launch attacks within system, I'm not vulnerable to a boomerang, but the Heph is STILL vulnerable. Why? Because 1) Harvesters keep it pinned down far longer than the attack round trip. My MAC fleet isn't vulnerable after it gets home though harvesters are still out. 2) My MAC fleet is only vulnerable when my fleet is at it's APEX, if the boomerang is launched before my fleet hits (but see the 100/90/80/etc speed increment point below, and you see there is plenty of reaction time), I can recall messing up the boomerang. So it is a very small window. However, an attack on the Heph has a much bigger window of opportunity since the attack has to land only before the fleet returns (and/or harvesters). For example, round trip with Proms in system is about 40 min. Most of your fleet is committed. At impact time minus a couple seconds, if an attack is launched on your Heph, you wouldn't be able to react in time. The vulnerable Heph would be destroyed, and the fleet. For a boomerang on a fleet to catch you in system, it has to be launched seconds after your fleet hits, but minus the ships you just destroyed, which is a key factor in whether you are walking into a trap or not. If that fleet wants to participate in the boomerang against you, it has to leave at least a minute or two prior because of the 100/90/80/etc speed increments. So you would see it well in advance vs the 1-2 seconds in advance. Its a fine matter of seconds, so I will concede it isn't a huge difference, just a very small one.

However, someone mentioned offloading harvesters to a planet. Keep in mind even that presents a window of opportunity against the Heph. One way trip in system is about 45 min (for me). So lets say I deployed them and went for coffee. I could come back with a few minutes to spare to check in and see my 1k+ harvesters got oracle locked. Of course natural inclination is to recall. At which point now I have 40 minutes of nail biting, well 20, because after 20 I would know I'm safe.

Bottom line, I have to sit and babysit it to make sure I'm not getting played or setup. To me that counts for something as well.
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I\'m pretty sure that\'s just D-baggery.

Offline Asrrin29

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #347 on: June 06, 2010, 06:21:05 PM »
Quote from: "Badrash"
I will concede that Oracle Nerf does allow small-moderate sized fleeters the time to delay purchasing the Heph, therefore, its effectiveness was reduced, therefore it was Nerf'd as a consequence of the change.

I think a few of us got caught up in the argument about which is the "better" method to use.

The Heph is superior due to total cost of ownership thru fuel savings and the additional income from a mining planet.  The MAC is superior in initial cost and speed of deployment.  With the changes, you can not tell where either is being deployed to (though due to fuel efficiencies, the Heph can be deployed on much longer deploys for the same cost.)  The argument that you can lose your entire fleet if you lose your Heph is identical on if you get boomerang'd (or locked) doing an attack from a MAC (though its not likely you would lose your support ships in an attack on a MAC.)  You just have to understand those risks when using fleets for each and create new additional tactics to overcome.

Can we agree on the above?

I can definitely agree with this.  Each has pros and cons, but the heph suffered a blow to it's value with this change.  The heph is good for cross-galactic moves with huge fleets.  I think I'd still prefer to use a MAC myself, even though I have a large fleet (1500+ caps, double in fodder) because of time and safety.  I don't do SFC Extreme, so all those times Big S quoted are doubled for me, which gives possible defenders even more time to ready themselves.
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Offline Big S

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #348 on: June 06, 2010, 06:36:57 PM »
Badrash,
Also in the interest of truly comparing the two, there are some critical points that haven't been mentioned.

1) Gas mileage. The common point about the Heph is it saves gas. But almost never is the extra gas spent on the Heph ever truly accounted for or mentioned. It's like buying a hybrid and saying it saves money on gas, but neglecting to factor the cost of the battery which will eventually have to be replaced, OR neglecting to factor the tranny costs down the road (which is significant according to my mechanic), or neglecting to factor that if you live in Texas you are going to run your AC which means engine is on when sitting at that stop light ;-). TCO (total cost of ownership) often negates the savings of a hybrid, which on paper seems to be a rock solid benefit.

People forget that you can't just leave a Heph sitting around, I can plant a MAC and operate from it for days. I can take a day off, fleet save, and come back and operate a couple more days. That Heph you have to move. If you go to bed, you have to put it in motion to somewhere. If I put a Zeus on my MAC, I can go to bed for minimal hydro costs. So that certainly erodes this magical hydro savings everyone talks about, does it not??

2) Play time. Related to the point above, I think everyone would agree that having a Heph means more diligence. For those who play SFC all day, or even just for many hours a day, that's no big deal. But if you don't want SFC to rule your work schedule, a Heph becomes a big inconvenience. You have to be much more careful with it, you can't just leave it unattended, or have it land somewhere when you aren't online waiting to manage it. The variable speed gives you much more control over it and the timing, so that's great, but it is still something that is going to dictate more caution. Yeah sure, I have to be careful with my fleet anyway, but the concept of a Heph is to park it in enemy territory. Yes like a MAC. With my MAC though, I can just harvest for a long time and know my fleet will come back to where I want them to be. With a Heph, you have to send it somewhere or manage a deploy/recall system to get it back to it's starting point. And while that may not be a big deal to some, to me, it makes all the difference. I was willing to quit SFCX when moons first came out because deploy/recall fleet saving was TOO MUCH of a hassle. Hephs are deploy/recall, except with more eggs and a bigger basket to worry about.

If BFG allowed the Heph to be undeployed so I could drop a planet put the Heph back in orbit and harvest fleet save it like any other ship, I'd have already built one by now. I had the resources at one point.

So for many, this is a critical concern. I'm not like some people I've seen like Yaman (not picking on the guy) where playing this game is an everyday multi-hour affair. For me, I'd move a heph, maybe make a few attacks and then be done for the day and yes, I'd be moving it again, not because I want to but because I have to to save the thing from certain destruction. I wouldn't be getting this full value out of it, because I'd be moving it when I didn't want to, thus costing hydro I wouldn't have otherwise spent in the first place.
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Quote from: \"Evan Woodard\"
I\'m pretty sure that\'s just D-baggery.

Offline Xela

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #349 on: June 06, 2010, 06:42:38 PM »
Quote from: "Big S"
However, someone mentioned offloading harvesters to a planet. Keep in mind even that presents a window of opportunity against the Heph. One way trip in system is about 45 min (for me). So lets say I deployed them and went for coffee. I could come back with a few minutes to spare to check in and see my 1k+ harvesters got oracle locked. Of course natural inclination is to recall. At which point now I have 40 minutes of nail biting, well 20, because after 20 I would know I'm safe.

Bottom line, I have to sit and babysit it to make sure I'm not getting played or setup. To me that counts for something as well.

What I meant was have a seperate planet in the system other than the hep. Keep your dios on this planet and your fleet on the hep. You lose the colony slot the hep frees up,  but you won't get locked if your dios are out.
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Offline Big S

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #350 on: June 06, 2010, 06:52:49 PM »
Quote from: "Xela"
Quote from: "Big S"
However, someone mentioned offloading harvesters to a planet. Keep in mind even that presents a window of opportunity against the Heph. One way trip in system is about 45 min (for me). So lets say I deployed them and went for coffee. I could come back with a few minutes to spare to check in and see my 1k+ harvesters got oracle locked. Of course natural inclination is to recall. At which point now I have 40 minutes of nail biting, well 20, because after 20 I would know I'm safe.

Bottom line, I have to sit and babysit it to make sure I'm not getting played or setup. To me that counts for something as well.

What I meant was have a seperate planet in the system other than the hep. Keep your dios on this planet and your fleet on the hep. You lose the colony slot the hep frees up,  but you won't get locked if your dios are out.

I thought I understood your point, but maybe not. How do your harvesters get to point B when you move your operation? Don't you fly them back to the Heph, and let the Heph transport the whole circus, then land, deploy a new planet and fly your Dios to it? How else do the dios get on that planet in the first place? That's what I was talking about above.
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Quote from: \"Evan Woodard\"
I\'m pretty sure that\'s just D-baggery.

Offline Big S

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #351 on: June 06, 2010, 07:21:07 PM »
BTW,
Anyone other than Brian still confuse on "value", here's some food for thought.

- You have a lot of people saying they'd still buy a Heph today, it is still worth it to them.
- You don't hear one person saying they went from not wanting a Heph to wanting a Heph based on the oracle changes. This is indisputable. Not even Brian would try to argue this.
- You hear several people saying they might have bought a Heph but are no longer interested in it because one of the key features can now be had in a form more attractive to them. Seeing Yaman use his, I actually reconsidered buying a Heph based on the stealth element of surprise when he showed up in my system. But not anymore!

Fewer buyers means less value, because more than one has said it is devalued to them. And those who are buyers or potential buyers aren't saying the changes increased the value to them. Mathematically, it's indisputable unless you shrink the pool of consumers down to one person and consider only their opinion on value. QED


That aside, BTW, these changes actually do save me gas, on the whole, just like a Heph would. Based on strategy leveraging this development. Was it this forum I pointed out that a Gaia gives me a stealth attack? I got to thinking how that would evolve into a method of grazing through a galaxy based on the cost of hydro I'd be spending on attacking anyway.

I'll call it the stealth inch-worm. Lets say I start in a new galaxy at system 1. I see someone in system 10 I want to pillage. Well, conventionally, I risk the round trip time of him coming online and dodging. But if I stealth it with a colony ship, I move my fleet 10 systems (harvesters can lag behind or come in a different batch, or go ahead and head toward the DF to be created) drop in, and have only 15-20 minutes of visible attack time. Now my base is at system 10. My attack cost about 100k more to launch, however, my fleet returns to system 10 instead of 1. Eventually I'd have flown my fleet down this way when it came time to move with the pre-change MAC system, but with the stealth tactic, I've moved, hidden an attack, and spent marginally more hydro all at the same time. I can rinse and repeat as needed, working from one end of the galaxy to another, hitting more systems than I ever could have before, on less hydro, all while having my true attacks cloaked for longer amounts of time. This combined with some of the strategies on timing the return of harvests, it's a repeatable recipe that actually saves a lot of hydro in the end, unless I'm missing something.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM by Guest »
Quote from: \"Evan Woodard\"
I\'m pretty sure that\'s just D-baggery.

Offline LunarAvenger

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #352 on: June 06, 2010, 07:23:27 PM »
Your missing that you want to launch at more then 1 person per day... or per several hours.
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Offline bryn987

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #353 on: June 06, 2010, 07:58:25 PM »
I wasn't interested in the heph anyway at my stage of the game as I had to deploy it every single night.

Maybe now they will either make it indestructible or able to fleet save it to make it more attractive
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Offline The Grand Ace

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #354 on: June 06, 2010, 08:59:38 PM »
I don't have an oracle but this was a dumb update.
refund people, if not changing it back, and make moons twice as easy to get and oracles 50% cost (for scans too)?
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Offline Sid82

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #355 on: June 06, 2010, 09:10:08 PM »
Quote from: "The Grand Ace"
I don't have an oracle but this was a dumb update.
refund people, if not changing it back, and make moons twice as easy to get and oracles 50% cost (for scans too)?

while you are at it, just give everybody a moon :roll:
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Quote from: \"LHDR\"
Quote from: \"Sid82\"
-1 don\'t need a reason other than this is a stupid idea
Quote from: \"LHDR\"
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doesn\'t work when idea IS stupid
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8493

Offline lee666

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #356 on: June 06, 2010, 09:57:11 PM »
update:
the oracle can now no longer see if neo is the one... we all done for...
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Offline Fuzzy Badfeet

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #357 on: June 06, 2010, 10:17:14 PM »
Quote from: "bryn987"
I wasn't interested in the heph anyway at my stage of the game as I had to deploy it every single night.

Maybe now they will either make it indestructible or able to fleet save it to make it more attractive

You can fleetsave it each night, you deploy it to another empty slot in the system.  It's no different than sending your fleet from a mobile colony on a harvest save each night.  And they introduced variable speed settings for it, so you're not stuck at only 5 hours for insystem anymore.
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Offline Bodge

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #358 on: June 06, 2010, 10:28:59 PM »
Quote from: "bryn987"
Same system:
100% Gas-51,942, Time 5:26:57
30 systems away:
100% Gas-285,428, Time 12:33:15
Times based on Warp 9


In Extreme these figures are better
Same system:
This will cost 52,712 hydrogen and take 02:41:54
30 systems away:
This will cost 285,428 hydrogen and take 06:16:37
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Offline Bodge

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Re: Oracle Update
« Reply #359 on: June 06, 2010, 10:31:43 PM »
Quote from: "Big S"
Didn't you lose yours (twice)? Before the thing paid back it's hydro savings I believe.

Another Big mouth who doesn't know the facts before opening their mouth.
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